[nabs] Access to books and notes, was foreign professors

Wed Aug 24 23:43:58 EDT 2011

Ashley,
I never thought of useing readers for studying purposes and such. I had a 
scribe/tutor/reader for the computer class I took a few semesters back. She 
was hired by Student Support Services (SSS), which is a small 'organization' 
at Trident Technical College that provides students with tools for success 
at college. Her job was to scribe notes for me and "tutor" me in the 
computer course. At the time I was taking this class, MS 2007 had just been 
released and I had some difficulty in navigating the interface. She actually 
was a god-send because not only did she take notes for me in class, she 
reviewed material with me for test and quizes, she also scribe the quizes 
for me during quiz time but she could not assist me in taking the tests, and 
she also assisted (rather did or clicked) my work in the  Office suites like 
powerpoint, excel, and access because JAWS 7 (which was what the college 
has) was willing to be very nice :-). (That is something that I am still 
regretting because I still have loads of trouble with those applications 
:-(.) Also Katie was a A student from the same computer class a few 
semesters back and she also had the same teacher as me which gave me a huge 
advantage. I have used Katie several more times in other classes like 
english and anthropology. I only wish she was still a student at TTC because 
I really could use her for biology and math. Honestly, she was one of those 
few individuals with a super brain which made her the perfect 
scribe/tutor/reader. Every reader I had since then has been sh*t and not 
because I expected them to give the same "service" as Katie but because they 
half did the job and often just days into the job. I also felt that they 
felt that I didn't deserve the accomodations...like it was a handout. SMH
I must also admit that I didn't know that VR services may be able to offer 
monies for reader services and I will look into such accomodations in my 
area.
Thanks,
Netta
"Just because you are blind, does not mean you lack vision"-Stevie Wonder
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
To: "Discussion list for NABS,National Alliance of Blind Students." 
<nabs at acb.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs] Access to books and notes, was foreign professors

Dear Alicia,
Hope others will chime in and it might be good to know what schools we are 
speaking of. Is yours a big public school?
Generally speaking, public schools have more funding for resources and more 
disabled students because they want a diverse population and well public 
schools are cheaper and funded by VR, sometimes.

I attended George mason university, GMU, and Marymount University, MU; one 
had a big disability support office, DSO,
and the other did not. MU only had one disability counselor and one student 
worker under her.  GMU had several DSO counselors and a huge assistive 
technology department. The AT department scanned books for students and even 
produced braille tests upon request.
At Mu though, they provided accessible texts and a computer with jaws in the 
library, but resources were less there.

Now, back to reader services. The DSO made it clear at both schools that 
reader services were the responsibility of the student.
They only provided readers for exams, as does your school.
Are you refering to readers in class or outside for studying/research?
Neta said her school offers readers for the classroom and for tests.  Most 
schools will do this.
But when I think of readers, I think of studying and reading outside class.
I believe that is our responsibility; I don’t think the school is legally 
required to assist us there, but they are obligated to give us access during 
class.
Since most of the work occurs outside class doing research for papers and 
reading, I believe that would leave us
looking to hire our own readers.

Alicia, I’m curious if you needed a reader and if you found a suitable one. 
I interviewed readers who sounded fine then while they read a short passage, 
but when they really read to me, they were kind of bad.
I used student readers and advertised for them on boards. Often they were 
not as reliable as I needed and the quality had a lot to be desired for 
some; and I had some who quit mid semester saying they just needed to focus 
on their studies.  Still I had some great readers who I won’t forget.  I 
used readers for research and looking up material. I had half a book to 
review for midterms and had holes in my notes. A reader can find it in the 
index. Even with electronic text, half the time, I could not find the term 
or concept I needed because the computer will only look for exact phrases. 
During my classes with diagrams, charts, pictures and numbers,  I used 
readers to read the chart and describe the information.  Sometimes a 
diagram/chart duplicated the text info and we skipped the chart.

Other times, a book was not available in accessible format, or Learning Ally 
had an old edition. In these cases, I used a reader as I wanted the most 
current information.

Accessing texts is sure challenging.

Ashley

From: Starner, Alicia
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 8:35 AM
To: 'Discussion list for NABS,National Alliance of Blind Students.'
Subject: Re: [nabs] Access to books and notes, was foreign professors

The opinion of my access office is that reader services are the 
responsibility of the student. The college does provide a reader/scribe for 
tests, but that is the only thing they will authorize.

Alicia

From: nabs-bounces at acb.org [mailto:nabs-bounces at acb.org] On Behalf Of Ann 
Pimley
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 10:59 PM
To: 'Discussion list for NABS, National Alliance of Blind Students.'
Subject: Re: [nabs] Access to books and notes, was foreign professors

I don’t understand how some colleges can not provide a reader/scribe for 
classes that have a lot of pictures and diagrams in the book or in 
powerpoints  or other graphics that the instructor shows during class. If 
you get a text book from Learning Ally, at least the pictures and diagrams 
are described. For sure all state sponsored universities would need to do 
this, and I think even private colleges would have to. It is not an 
accessible format for a student who is blind if the college does not have 
the graphics described in some way either by Learning Ally or a 
reader/scribe, or both.

Ann

From: nabs-bounces at acb.org [mailto:nabs-bounces at acb.org] On Behalf Of 
Starner, Alicia M.
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 4:16 PM
To: 'Discussion list for NABS, National Alliance of Blind Students.'
Subject: Re: [nabs] Access to books and notes, was foreign professors

Well said Ashley. I think reader services were very helpful to me in my math 
and science classes. Math is a very visual subject; therefore, it requires 
someone to actually explain the format of the problem. A computer just 
couldn’t do that for me. In addition, it couldn’t explain the diagrams or 
charts in my biology textbook that enhanced the concepts discussed in the 
text. A reader clarified that information for me and actually made it 
understandable without being able to see it. It would be a huge disservice 
if VR discontinued reader service for their clients, simply because they 
feel college access offices should provide that service. The bottom line is 
that not all colleges do. Matter of fact, my university does not provide a 
reader for nothing other than the exams. If I needed assistance with a math 
course, for example, I would be on my own to figure that out. I am a 
transfer student who started at the community college before transferring to 
the university this semester.

Alicia

From: nabs-bounces at acb.org [mailto:nabs-bounces at acb.org] On Behalf Of 
bookwormahb at earthlink.net
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 2:59 PM
To: Discussion list for NABS, National Alliance of Blind Students.
Subject: Re: [nabs] Access to books and notes, was foreign professors

Laura,

I do not think you should choose a college based on the disability service 
accomodations.

Know what? Many colleges do not even have a disability service student’s 
office; such schools are either small schools or private schools. Therefore 
I’ve known students who provide all their accomodations.  Disability offices 
do not listen. I asked last semester for jaws to be upgraded and installed 
on multiple computers at campus. There is more than one blind student at 
school. They did not upgrade jaws.

Nova does not scan books; instead all they can do is request the book from 
the publisher after you buy it. Then if that fails to work, they outsource 
the scanning.  Yes if a disability office exists, they should provide 
accessible material. But some do not.

As to readers, if I encountered that problem, I’d get an advocacy 
organization involved like ACB if I was a member. Isn’t that what the 
advocacy organizations are for? State vr needs to provide reader funds. Some 
subjects are just visual and you need a reader to read to you and make 
tactile diagrams.

I do not agree  with VR if they cut off reader funds. They are still needed 
despite the technology we have. I had a print grammar book. If I could not 
hire a reader, I would have dropped the course. The disability office does 
not scan books as I said; I’d have to send my book away for two weeks to get 
it scanned if I wanted it.

But you see, the book was  not scannable anyway. It was loaded with marks 
like underlines to indicate grammar of subject vs predicate. It had 
abbreviations above the words like LV for linking verb, tv for transitive 
verb, etc. So a reader was quite helpful in reading this and telling me the 
abbreviations. Actually we struggled through it as there was so much he/she 
was

wonder how to read it. Point is that a reader could explain it where as a 
computer could not.

Ashley

From: Laura Glowacki

Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 12:12 PM

To: Discussion list for NABS,National Alliance of Blind Students.

Subject: Re: [nabs] Access to books and notes, was foreign professors

Ashley,

I've actually heard that some VR counselors won't provide money for readers 
anymore because bookshare, RFB, and DS offices are responsible for textbook 
conversion.  That's they're reasoning; I'm not saying I agree certainly.

I'm also not thrilled about blind students having to scan many of their own 
books.  I can understand a couple maybe, particularly in circumstances where 
the DS office is too busy with the rest of their books or where you get a 
book from Amazon at the last minute or something.  However, it should be a 
DS office's responsibility to scan and hopefully do some sort of cursory 
proofreading job on the student's textbooks.  My best friend goes to a small 
private Bible college with hardly any DS services to speak of.  I can almost 
garantee that she spent as much time scanning her books as she did going to 
class, if not more, and that was every single semester.  While I think it's 
important blind students be able to scan their own materials, I desperately 
hope that it never becomes their prime responsibility to complete that task.

Laura

On 8/20/2011 11:18 PM, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote:

Zack,

That is how I feel. The disability office is not with the current times and 
is not educated about access laws and of course not educated about 
blindness.

I try to work directly with professors as well.  To the disability staff, 
you are a student ID, a number on a long list of students.

You can use bookshare and your own membership to Learning Ally/RFB to obtain 
your books, or scan them yourself.

Or you can be old fashioned and hire a reader!  Gasp, surprise,, hire a 
reader via your own funds or funds from VR. Yes its not as common with 
electronic texts and scanners now a days, but readers can skim and read what 
you want; it gets the job done.

We agree that working with the disability  support staff is frustrating. At 
nova, community college, they are way behind. They fail to provide enough 
assistive technology. Jaws is very old in the library and only one computer 
with jaws there. Nova also makes you take tests with readers who are 
inadaquate readers.  Okay either get a good reader or let the student take 
it electronically with an updated piece of assistive technology.

Students took tests with readers twenty years ago, and they still do today 
at nova.

I like hiring readers; but the difference is I determine who is qualified; I 
test them to see if they can read clearly. The disability staff does not 
sample their reading quality before hiring them.

Ashley

From: Zack Olson

Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 11:43 PM

To: Discussion list for NABS,National Alliance of Blind Students.

Subject: Re: [nabs] foreign professors

Anne,

Basically, the Chafey Amendment provides for accessible textbooks and other 
accessible print matter for the blind and visually impaired.  The Chafey 
Amendment is why Bookshare is possible.  The language of it is a bit 
confusing, but basically as far as university disability support is 
concerned, it means that any disability support office at any U.S. 
university (or junior/community college, etc.) doesn’t need the go-ahead 
from the book publisher to conver the book into an accessible format as long 
as the student has already purchased the print version of the book, and as 
long as it will be exclusively used by students with documented visual or 
other print disabilities.

Frankly, I like Bookshare much more than dealing with my disability support 
people.  They’re about ten years in the past as far as their policy and 
procedures go.  It makes working with them very frustrating.  Most of the 
blind/VI students here try to go out of their way not to have to deal with 
them by working directly with professors, departments, etc.

From: Ann Pimley

Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 10:19 PM

To: 'Discussion list for NABS, National Alliance of Blind Students.'

Subject: Re: [nabs] foreign professors

Zack,

Please explain what is “the Chafy Amendment?”

Ann

From: nabs-bounces at acb.org [mailto:nabs-bounces at acb.org] On Behalf Of Zack 
Olson
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 11:01 PM
To: Discussion list for NABS, National Alliance of Blind Students.
Subject: Re: [nabs] foreign professors

Hello,

yes, it is required under ADA/504 that either you get electronic notes from 
the professor or that your disability assistance office provides a scribe. 
I’ve brushed up on my ADA a bit in the last year, as my university likes to 
provide pretty much the minimum as far as ADA regulations are concerned. 
Now if only they’d brush up on the Chafy Amendment, things would be awesome.

Anyway, definitely contact your disability support people and inquire about 
a note-taker.

Hope it works out for you.

From: Ann Pimley

Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 9:54 PM

To: 'Discussion list for NABS, National Alliance of Blind Students.'

Subject: Re: [nabs] foreign professors

Alicia,

Does the instructor write on the board, or show powerpoints in class? You 
said that “if I can’t see his notes,” so doesn’t he give you electronic 
copies of his notes or powerpoints? Does the college provide you with a 
reader/scribe? I believe that under the ADA and Section 504, either the 
instructor has to provide you with lecture notes that he writes on the board 
and powerpoints, or the college needs to provide you with a scribe that will 
copy all the written information down. I always insisted on having a 
reader/scribe when I was attending a community college, even if I got the 
powerpoints electronically. At one point when the Office for Students with 
Disabilities said they did not have any more scribes I contacted the college 
lawyer and insisted on getting someone. Your Access Office is probably 
responsible to make sure that you get class information in an accessible 
format, so I would think you should contact them. They should either ask the 
professor to send you lecture notes and powerpoints, or provide you with a 
reader/scribe. If he is so hard to understand then probably it would be 
better to get a copy of his lecture notes, because a reader/scribe might not 
be able to understand him either.

I will start at a 4 year university next spring and I don’t know yet what 
their policy is. If I think it does not follow the law, I am willing to 
fight for my rights there also.

I have heard of other students having the same problem with a language 
barrier, and they dropped the class and took it somewhere else. I am not 
sure what is the college’s responsibility to make sure that students can 
understand the professor. I had one instructor that was slightly hard to 
understand, but she always sent me her lecture notes or powerpoints before 
class so I could look them over.

Please do let us know about what happens with your situation, and good luck 
to you.

Ann

From: nabs-bounces at acb.org [mailto:nabs-bounces at acb.org] On Behalf Of 
Starner, Alicia M.
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 6:57 PM
To: 'Discussion list for NABS, National Alliance of Blind Students.'
Subject: [nabs] foreign professors

Hello All,

I kind of know what I am going to do, but thought I would get some input 
from all of you. This semester is the first time I have come across a 
foreign professor with such a strong accent. ON the first day of classes 
there was only room for me in the back of the classroom, so I went in and 
took a seat. I had a very difficult time understanding the professor. I left 
the classroom thinking that I will go back and sit up front. On Friday that 
is just what I did, but I still walked out of class not understanding him. I 
did understand the video he was playing, but couldn’t understand a word he 
was saying. My first thought was drop the course and see if there was 
another instructor that taught the course, but I learned that he is the only 
instructor that teaches the course. I feel I am at a double disadvantage if 
I can’t see his notes and I can’t understand a word he is saying. I started 
to send an email to the access office, but decided it probably isn’t an 
issue for her. It is not really her fault or the universities fault I don’t 
understand a word this man says. I even recorded the lecture to see if I 
could understand him better at home, but the recording was even worse. Does 
anyone have any suggestions? I thought about dropping the course and seeing 
if he teaches the course online, but don’t know what to do. What would you 
all do if in the same situation.

Thanks,

Alicia Starner

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