[nabs] sc school for the blind

[Desiree Oudinot]

Zac,
You're definitely right about that. And, if people would just live and
let live, I wouldn't have an issue. It's when I encounter this
attitude, especially on certain message boards, that it really
disgusts me. If you really feel you must live up to an image, then do
it, but don't make other people feel like crap about themselves
because they're not doing the same thing. Everyone is in control of
their own lives to some extent, and I believe that trying to change us
all into one specific mold of the perfect image of what blind people
can be is just as dangerous as the non-disabled advocating for us.

On 10/3/11, Zack Olson <zack.olson.85 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dornetta,
>
> I get the joke. I've been known to mess with sighted people just for the
> sake of observing their stunned demeanor. Maybe that's a bit snarky, but
> everybody has to entertain themselves somehow right?  Plenty of people have
> entertained themselves at my expense in the past, I'm just reciprocating a
> bit. ;)
>
> Desiree,
>
> I've never been too thrilled with the notion that we're walking educational
> displays to the sighted public either. But realistically, we're the only
> people qualified to do the educating. Nondisabled people have been educating
> other nondisabled people about people with disabilities for years and that's
> where a lot of the stupid and downright ignorant pre- and misconceptions
> come from. I don't feel the need to adhere to any rigorous standard of
> behavior or image other than the one I set for myself. And I think you're
> right, we can be great examples just by being ourselves. After all, we're
> neither piteous or amazing, we're just people. We do a lot of the same
> things as anybody else, and why we should have to live up to anybody else's
> standard for us as people with blindness or VI, or as people in general is
> something I've never understood. I can also understand the group of people
> with disabilities that feel they have to adhere to an image. Society places
> a lot of pressure on people with disabilities to act a certain way, and some
> people feel like they have to act a certain way to be treated with the same
> respect as their nondisabled peers. It's a legitimate response to have
> toward the way society viewss us, whether that view is accurate or not.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Desiree Oudinot
> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 6:20 PM
> To: Discussion list for NABS,National Alliance of Blind Students.
> Subject: Re: [nabs] sc school for the blind
>
> It definitely is sad that people like that give the rest of us a bad
> name, but if someone is going to have a preconceived notion about me
> based on the experiences they may or may not have had in the past, I
> don't want anything to do with them anyway. This notion that we're all
> walking educational displays to the sighted public is pure BS. If I'm
> being myself, and I happen to change someone's mind, that's great. But
> don't come up to me and tell me I should act this or that way to force
> the public opinion to change. That's like saying  African American
> people should act a certain way, or any minority you can think of, to
> further the public's understanding of said groups. I think there would
> be quite an uproar if that were to happen. This was not inspired by
> this thread, so I hope no one takes it the wrong way. it's just
> something that's really been eating at me for a long time because I
> hear a lot of blind people say that, and act appalled that someone
> else destroyed their good name. Um, sorry, but if you're that
> concerned with appearances, and can't create your own image, you're
> the one with a problem.
>
> On 10/3/11, Dornetta <dornetta at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Zack you are so right. But when our math classmates look upon with
>> amazement
>> and wonder in their eyes and then look over at said named person, I just
>> look and catch their eyes and laugh because the look on their faces is
>> priceless...LOL It is sort of a "hidden" joke and only I understand. IDK,
>> I
>> know, I should be smiling at someone else misfortune but to be there is
>> the
>> point that I am making. It is because she walks around with entitlement
>> and
>> the "I know what I am doing" attitude that is so humorous is all. If what
>> I
>> said offend anyone, please excuse me. Again, a laugh/smile that only I
>> understand.
>> Netta
>> "Just because you are blind, does not mean you lack vision"-Stevie Wonder
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Zack Olson" <zack.olson.85 at gmail.com>
>> To: "Discussion list for NABS,National Alliance of Blind Students."
>> <nabs at acb.org>
>> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 11:09 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs] sc school for the blind
>>
>>
>>> Netta,
>>>
>>> I have to say, I'm not much for peoples' amazement anymore than I am
>>> their
>>>
>>> pity. Somebody who is amazed that a blind person can do the same things
>>> they do, or even things they can't or don't do, means that they've
>>> already
>>>
>>> made some prior judgment about the capabilities of people with blindness.
>>> It's really not much better than pity. Why should anybody be amazed that
>>> I
>>>
>>> go to class, participate along with the rest of class, and do my
>>> assignments? The only things that have or ever do keep people with
>>> blindness from doing what others do are their own personal attitude
>>> toward
>>>
>>> blindness and/or society's generally dismissive or devaluative attitudes
>>> toward blind people. Many of the other obstacles that people with
>>> blindness face stem form those two causes.-----Original Message-----
>>> From: Dornetta
>>> Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 8:28 AM
>>> To: Discussion list for NABS,National Alliance of Blind Students.
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs] sc school for the blind
>>>
>>> Desiree:
>>> I am appalled  to hear such a thing. It is still unbelievable  to me to
>>> hear
>>> of such things or rather people doing such things. Like I said, I have
>>> not
>>> been blind all of my life and during my "sighted years", I was something
>>> fierce and probably would have served her up something nice despite our
>>> blind related handicaps LMAO!
>>> But I am sorry that you had to go through such a horrible  situation. It
>>> is
>>> people like that one we are discussing that motivates me the most because
>>> to
>>> speak frankly, I refuse to be blind/visually impaired and have society
>>> look
>>> at me through eyes that hold pity; instead I would rather for them to
>>> look
>>> at me and view me through that hold amazement and wonder (although most
>>> of
>>> what we-blind/visually impaired-do does not amaze us) LOL
>>> Netta
>>> "Just because you are blind, does not mean you lack vision"-Stevie Wonder
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Desiree Oudinot" <turtlepower17 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Discussion list for NABS,National Alliance of Blind Students."
>>> <nabs at acb.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 9:40 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs] sc school for the blind
>>>
>>>
>>>> The thing is, you can't help someone unless they want to be helped.
>>>> You can't fix someone either. I was friends with a girl like the one
>>>> you describe for several years. She expected the world to be handed to
>>>> her on a silver platter because she didn't know any better. She is
>>>> very loud and is always in someone's face, demanding to know their
>>>> business or demanding to know everything that's going on in any given
>>>> situation. I know people she's taken karate with and she will just
>>>> march up in the building and say "show me where to sit down" to anyone
>>>> who will listen. Then she just sits there and runs her mouth rather
>>>> than do anything productive in the class. Besides that, she shows up
>>>> to any event looking sloppy and with stains on her clothes etc. She is
>>>> also morbidly obese. I don't say that to be mean but to show that I
>>>> clearly sympathize with your plight and how difficult it must be for
>>>> you to deal with. No matter how gently or harshly I told this girl
>>>> what she needed to do, she would either tune me out entirely or berate
>>>> me for my own shortcomings. When she entered college, she had no idea
>>>> what would be expected of her. She constantly asked me to do her work
>>>> for her. Needless to say I refused. This ultimately ended our
>>>> friendship.
>>>> She is now 25, still living with her parents, who are quite
>>>> dysfunctional I might add, so she would be better off somewhere else,
>>>> and still the same as she always was. She has no concept of living
>>>> independently. She barely knows how to cook or clean, so she orders
>>>> out constantly and usually only eats French fries. I have seen her do
>>>> this several times as well as act generally baffled once when I said I
>>>> didn't want to eat fries and nothing else for lunch. I guess I feel
>>>> sorry for her, but she chose her path, not to mention she burned a
>>>> bridge with me that could never be repaired. She forced herself on me
>>>> when she knew I wasn't that way. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing
>>>> against homosexuals, I'm just not one, but she did that and that was
>>>> basically the end for me.
>>>>
>>>> On 10/2/11, Alicia M. Starner <astarner at charter.net> wrote:
>>>>> Netta,
>>>>>
>>>>> I also think that is very sad that there was classes for her to improve
>>>>> her
>>>>> skills on the computer and she refused them. That is very unfortunate
>>>>> for
>>>>> her and the only one she is hurting is herself. I have some concerns
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>> a
>>>>> bit of doubt about her success as a college student. Very sad indeed!
>>>>>
>>>>> Alicia
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-bounces at acb.org [mailto:nabs-bounces at acb.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>> Ashley
>>>>> Bramlett
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 8:23 PM
>>>>> To: Discussion list for NABS, National Alliance of Blind Students.
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs] sc school for the blind
>>>>>
>>>>> Neta,
>>>>> That is sad. Some people won't learn even though it is offered. I
>>>>> attended
>>>>> our rehab center for the blind, but did not improve many skills
>>>>> including
>>>>> computers because of factors like not individualizing the program and
>>>>> disorganized teachers. But I did attend all classes! If the girl fails
>>>>> to
>>>>> attend a class they set up for her, well then, that is her issue.
>>>>> She'll
>>>>> regret it someday!
>>>>> As for me I wanted to learn advanced internet skills and powerpoint,
>>>>> but
>>>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>> computer program at the center only covered basics like Word processing
>>>>> commands. There was a little internet, but I already knew the basics of
>>>>> googgle searches.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've found people with bad skills too but they don't take the training
>>>>> when
>>>>> its offered or do not seek out resources for help. Its sad but true.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ashley
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Dornetta
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 8:53 PM
>>>>> To: Discussion list for NABS,National Alliance of Blind Students.
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs] sc school for the blind
>>>>>
>>>>> Alicia and Ashley:
>>>>> It is the sad truth but unfortunately, she has enrolled in a computer
>>>>> here
>>>>> in SC that is free to her and a very wonderful programs set up by the
>>>>> commission for the blind where both JAWS & Zoom w/wo speech is taught.
>>>>> I
>>>>> must say, I graduated from the same program also. Like I said this
>>>>> program
>>>>> is free and after completion a full copy of JAWS or Zoom w/wo speech is
>>>>> brought for your leisure although with a refurbished desk top computer.
>>>>> Like
>>>>> I said I graduated from the program about 4-years ago and had no
>>>>> problems
>>>>> with the computer. The young girl in question will not attend the
>>>>> classes
>>>>> even though the person has made arrangments to teach the components
>>>>> one-day
>>>>> a week (where the class is taught Tuesdays-Thursdays from 9-4 for 3 hrs
>>>>> each-depending on which program you need to learn and a 1 hr lunch
>>>>> taken
>>>>> from noon -1pm). It has been set up for to take the class on Wed. but
>>>>> she
>>>>> has yet to attend which is the reason why she get so much friction from
>>>>> me
>>>>> during class.
>>>>>
>>>>> Alicia, I commend you for your fight with your son and I don't have to
>>>>> tell
>>>>> you to keep it up LOL. I am also glad to read that he is doing so well
>>>>> in
>>>>> his studies *smile*
>>>>> Not to sound so mean or uncompassionate but I have very low tollerence
>>>>> for
>>>>> those who do not want to help them selves. I have not been blind all my
>>>>> life
>>>>> only for the last 15 years so the adjustment period was rough.  But it
>>>>> works
>>>>> my nerves when I see blind/visually impaired people who do not want to
>>>>> help
>>>>> them selves and would rather demand the help and feel that they are
>>>>> justified in the matter. SMH
>>>>> "Just because you are blind, does not mean you lack vision"-Stevie
>>>>> Wonder
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>>> To: "Discussion list for NABS,National Alliance of Blind Students."
>>>>> <nabs at acb.org>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 8:24 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs] sc school for the blind
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Neta,
>>>>> I feel bad for the girl and she'll have to learn the hard way she
>>>>> cannot
>>>>> keep up and not all teachers will wait for her to catch up. She'll
>>>>> probably
>>>>> fail college unless she takes a summer to get more skills.
>>>>> As I said, academics have a lot to be desired. But I know a few
>>>>> students
>>>>> graduating from the VA school for the blind VSDB who have technology
>>>>> skills
>>>>> and they go to college. But many students are not college bound due to
>>>>> other
>>>>> challenges. So just because they are not in college does not make VSDB
>>>>> bad.
>>>>> So schools for the blind vary. If I were you, I'd try and ignore the
>>>>> student
>>>>> or if you say anything, suggest she attend a summer program at a
>>>>> training
>>>>> center. NFB centers have them and other centers do too. Her VR
>>>>> counselor
>>>>> might be able to send a technology teacher to her home to help her too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Ashley Bramlett
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 8:07 PM
>>>>> To: Discussion list for NABS,National Alliance of Blind Students.
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs] P.E. experiences
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, you cannot generalize from schools. SC school for the blind may
>>>>> do
>>>>> that. But I've heard other positive things from students.
>>>>> I know at the virginia school for the blind they are taught O&M
>>>>> everyday
>>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>> daily living most days of the week and they have clubs for them. They
>>>>> are
>>>>> definitely taught computer skills. VSDB has a few computer labs.
>>>>> But now due to the budget funds are being cut for technology. I was
>>>>> discussing pros and cons of PE and I know that being with other blind
>>>>> kids
>>>>> is very beneficial. They have teachers that explain things to the
>>>>> students
>>>>> and no visual references are made.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> They can feel equal in PE and clubs there. VSDB even had a school
>>>>> newspaper
>>>>> that the kids ran.
>>>>> I know two kids that moved from public school to VSDB and did not
>>>>> regret
>>>>>
>>>>> it.
>>>>> They had needs that the school was not addressing.
>>>>> If inclusion worked, you would not have blind kids being
>>>>> nonparticipants
>>>>>
>>>>> in
>>>>> PE classes. You wouldn't have them sitting there while partners did lab
>>>>> experiements and hardly spoke to you. Oh, yes I felt ignored in the
>>>>> science
>>>>> lab.
>>>>> If inclusion worked, you would not have students graduating with
>>>>> deficits in
>>>>> fitness, science, math, or any subject.
>>>>>
>>>>> Parts of inclusion are good like having to sit through a class and take
>>>>> notes. This helps prepare you for college and employment. You have a
>>>>> notetaking device, take notes, and study them at home and sighted
>>>>> students
>>>>> take notes with pencil/paper.
>>>>>
>>>>> My parents were great advocates for academics but they left PE to the
>>>>> educators and just wanted me to get through it. They didn't know what I
>>>>> could do in PE either.
>>>>> Now there are more opportunities for blind kids to develop fitness.
>>>>> There
>>>>> are camp abilities to teach these skills. I wish  I could have attended
>>>>> camp
>>>>> abilities! They ought to make a basic fitness and intro to sports  camp
>>>>> for
>>>>> adults!
>>>>> And as  a college student I'll add that I attempted to take ballroom
>>>>> dancing. The teacher was a jerk. Herefused to accommodate me and said
>>>>> mean
>>>>> things like I'd slow his class down and he did not see how I could
>>>>> dance. I
>>>>> dropped the class. I could have also filed a discrimination complaint.
>>>>> This
>>>>> happenened at George Mason before I went to MU.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm glad a few of you had positive PE experiences. PE is very important
>>>>> due
>>>>> to the rising obesity problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Dornetta
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 7:39 PM
>>>>> To: Discussion list for NABS,National Alliance of Blind Students.
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs] P.E. experiences
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello!
>>>>> Here are my thoughts on the residential setting vs traditional.  I am
>>>>> currently taking a algebra class with another blind student (the first
>>>>> blind
>>>>> student I have encountered at my college) and she comes from a
>>>>> residential
>>>>> setting. In my honest opinion, (and this is only my opinion so sorry if
>>>>> I
>>>>> offend anyone), her skills are deplorable! While she is somewhat OK in
>>>>> the
>>>>> math department (meaning she can do the math with efficiency) she has
>>>>> poor
>>>>> social and computer skills. She has the mind set that someone has to do
>>>>> EVERYTHING for her and she cannot do it by herself. I found myself
>>>>> asking
>>>>> her in very blunt tones (just because I have a very low tollerance for
>>>>> ish),
>>>>> what was her training like? She said it was great because they did
>>>>> everything for them. I found this sad mainly because she does not know
>>>>> how
>>>>> to advocate for herself. She does not know how to do nothing for
>>>>> herself.
>>>>> She sits beside me in class and asks me constantly to do this or that
>>>>> for
>>>>> her; which I DO NOT! I want to say, she is not the first person that I
>>>>> have
>>>>> encountered from this particular school that cannot "do for him or
>>>>> herself"
>>>>> I cannot speak on other schools with residential settings but only for
>>>>> the
>>>>> one that is in my state of SC and I just do not care for the
>>>>> residential
>>>>> setting for the educational needs of the blind; possibly with multiple
>>>>> disabilities. I find that they handicap the person more. The bully put
>>>>> aside, I think that blind/visually impaired persons should be educated
>>>>> in
>>>>> the public school setting with the necessary help from TVIs and
>>>>> resource
>>>>> teachers. Think about, if one of us have to start training for a job,
>>>>> we
>>>>>
>>>>> are
>>>>> trained with other blind/visually impaired "employees-to-be" instead,
>>>>> we
>>>>>
>>>>> are
>>>>> trained with the rest of the sighted training class. In the public
>>>>> school
>>>>> setting, the b/vi person can start thinking outside the box and also
>>>>> start
>>>>> learning how to live in a world that was not made for them. Yes, being
>>>>> blind
>>>>> is challenging but if the person is constantly given everything then
>>>>> how
>>>>> would they learn to ask. Now don't get me wrong, our math instructor
>>>>> abides
>>>>> by the 504 and makes accomodations but simple tasks like logging on to
>>>>> the
>>>>> class website and opening up the PDF file or worksheet is too difficult
>>>>> for
>>>>> the girl; not to mention that she gets very loud when the teacher
>>>>> proceeds
>>>>> before she can figure out how to open the file (and this after she
>>>>> allows
>>>>> us-her and I about 6-7 minutes to get the file.) When I ask the
>>>>> question,
>>>>> why don't you open the file before you come to class and save it on
>>>>> your
>>>>> desktop or in "my documents", she replies, why don't she just hands me
>>>>> a
>>>>> Braille copy? (may she is right, but allow me to say-she never told our
>>>>> counselor that she needs a Braille cope-GEESH!) Like I said, she is so
>>>>> used
>>>>> to being handed all her materials in the correct format that she does
>>>>> not
>>>>> fully understands what she needs to make her education work for her.
>>>>> She
>>>>> does not even know how to turn on her lap top or how to correctly or
>>>>> should
>>>>> I say start JAWS or the navigation keys. Her response to my question of
>>>>> what
>>>>> did you do at school is that they told them which keys to push, etc...
>>>>> (So I
>>>>> am like WTF! *mouth wide open) Often, may of the classmates giggle or
>>>>> LOL
>>>>> because my bluntness and I have to remind myself that this child is not
>>>>> one
>>>>> of my children and try to keep the annoyance out of my voice.
>>>>> Trust me, I make all attempts to assist or help as much as possible
>>>>> without
>>>>> missing so much of the lecture but it is diddicult most of the times.
>>>>> Often,
>>>>> I have to stop class to explain techy to her which is not fair to the
>>>>> other
>>>>> students but the teacher is so patient and allows a few minutes. LOL
>>>>> Sorry for the long response but those are my thoughts on the matter and
>>>>> like
>>>>> I said above: I apologize if anything in this message offended anyone.
>>>>> Netta
>>>>> "Just because you are blind, does not mean you lack vision"-Stevie
>>>>> Wonder
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Olivia Norman" <olivianorman at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "Discussion list for NABS,National Alliance of Blind Students."
>>>>> <nabs at acb.org>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 6:18 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs] P.E. experiences
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Everyone,
>>>>> I think I'm another one, with proof that inclusion does work well.  I
>>>>> don't
>>>>> know if I was just lucky, or what, but I never had any problems with
>>>>> social
>>>>> skills, finding friends, etc.  The only exception to this was my
>>>>> freshman
>>>>> year of high school, when my vision teacher sent me to my county's high
>>>>> school which had a vision resource room and suggested that I spend two
>>>>> periods a day in there that I absolutely didn't need.  This was
>>>>> undoubtedly
>>>>> the most miserable year of both my parents, and my, lives.  We were
>>>>> exhausted, I was unhappy, because I'd been taken away from my home
>>>>> district,
>>>>> friends, and instead of doing electives with my peers I was forced to
>>>>> take
>>>>> resource periods with a vision teacher that I got no value from and
>>>>> didn't
>>>>> need at all.  I have always been in honors classes, and was still in
>>>>> honors
>>>>> classes that year, but had to have vision resource twice a day which
>>>>> made me
>>>>> feel stupid, different, and sad.  I noticed that my peers in the vision
>>>>> resource room were functioning at a much lower level academically than
>>>>> I
>>>>> was, and that they'd been in  vision resource and lower level classes
>>>>> all
>>>>> their school careers.  I know that I was extremely fortunate to be
>>>>> fully
>>>>> included in my local schools until high school, because I was
>>>>> functioning on
>>>>> the same level as my sighted peers educationally, and I am not sure
>>>>> that
>>>>> this was the case with students in vision resource in my county.
>>>>> During
>>>>> elementary and middle school, I met with a vision teacher twice a week
>>>>> after
>>>>> school, and once during reading, so that I'd miss as little as
>>>>> possible.
>>>>>
>>>>> I
>>>>> had O and M once a week after school, and saxophone lessons once a week
>>>>> with
>>>>> a friend.  I didn't love having to have vision and O and M, but knew
>>>>> that I
>>>>> needed to have the services in order to succeed, so went along and
>>>>> learned
>>>>> what I could from them.
>>>>> After that disastrous year of high school, my parents moved me to a
>>>>> small
>>>>> private school, where I made friends, did well academically, and no
>>>>> longer
>>>>> got vision services.  My Dad contracted with a wonderful O and M
>>>>> instructor
>>>>> who I spent many hours with after school each week, and who taught me
>>>>> more
>>>>> than I'd ever learned in the school system.  She and I did public
>>>>> transit,
>>>>> developed my cane skills so that I felt comfortable doing things I'd
>>>>> never
>>>>> tried before, and she ultimately convinced me to get a guide dog my
>>>>> senior
>>>>> year once she felt I was ready for it.  I started getting home from
>>>>> school
>>>>> using busses and subways, which was a really liberating experience
>>>>> which
>>>>> stood me in great stead for college and beyond.
>>>>> As far as PE experiences, my elementary PE teacher was fabulous, and
>>>>> adapted
>>>>> games for me.  He put a beeper on the basket in basketball, showed me
>>>>> how to
>>>>> use a balance beam, and had classmates help me with other games.  I was
>>>>> always picked for teams, never experienced that issue, and I just did
>>>>> my
>>>>> best and learned what I could.
>>>>> Middle school was OK, but not great.  I warmed up like everyone else,
>>>>> with a
>>>>> classmates help, and after that, honestly, many of the girls in my
>>>>> class
>>>>>
>>>>> who
>>>>> weren't athletic would just jog around the field and socialize.  I was
>>>>> part
>>>>> of this group of girls, they were my friends, and we'd watch the
>>>>> athletic
>>>>> kids playing football, basketball, etc.  The only thing we took part in
>>>>> was
>>>>> wrestling, and we mostly ended up in a laughing heap during that,
>>>>> anyways.
>>>>> One important thing to note, that I haven't seen in this thread so far,
>>>>> kids
>>>>> with disabilities aren't the only ones excluded from PE. It was my
>>>>> experience that so much of PE was centered around traditional team
>>>>> sports,
>>>>> and those kids, disabled or not, who weren't good at sports found
>>>>> themselves
>>>>> excluded.  My group of friends just weren't athletic, they weren't
>>>>> disabled
>>>>> either, but sort of jogging and being a bunch of gossiping, giggling
>>>>> girls,
>>>>> was  deemed completely fine by our PE teacher because we just didn't
>>>>> have
>>>>> the skill or ability to play team sports.  I guess what I'm saying is
>>>>> that
>>>>> the problem extends beyond kids with disabilities, and that it would be
>>>>> great to see some changes to the PE system as a whole, with less focus
>>>>> on
>>>>> team sports and more focus on other areas of PE, so that everyone, not
>>>>> just
>>>>> kids who are considered good at team sports can take part in PE
>>>>> classes.
>>>>> Remember that group of giggling seventh grade girls I talked about
>>>>> earlier?
>>>>> Well, fourteen years later, many of us are still friends. I was
>>>>> recently
>>>>>
>>>>> on
>>>>> a work trip to Silicon Valley, and had the chance to catch up with one
>>>>> of
>>>>> them who now lives in San Francisco.  Perhaps nothing's changed, but we
>>>>> had
>>>>> a good laugh over our middle school PE classes, where all we did was
>>>>> talk
>>>>> about hot boys, they gave me great descriptions, while I know we should
>>>>> have
>>>>> a better PE experience, I will always value my friendship with those
>>>>> girls,
>>>>> and in some way, I guess that PE class was worth something.
>>>>> In high school, I had no PE for the first year, because I spent all
>>>>> that
>>>>> time in vision resource.  When I changed schools, we didn't have a PE
>>>>> requirement, so I had no PE one year, and did yoga for the next two,
>>>>> which
>>>>> worked well, because it was a small class, and a classmate showed me
>>>>> the
>>>>> moves.
>>>>> I recognize that I was very fortunate because my family had the
>>>>> resources to
>>>>> provide the best possible educational experience for me, but I really
>>>>> do
>>>>> believe that full inclusion works, and, in most cases, is a better
>>>>> solution
>>>>> than schools for the blind in residential settings.
>>>>> In college, I had no major social issues.  I was fortunate to have a
>>>>> good
>>>>> group of friends, and certainly did my share of normal college  stuff,
>>>>> partying, etc. :)
>>>>> When health issues forced me to transfer schools my junior year, I had
>>>>> different experience, because I lived at home and commuted, so found it
>>>>> harder to make friends in the huge  state school environment I was
>>>>> suddenly
>>>>> thrown into.  I really don't think that was due to my blindness,
>>>>> though,
>>>>>
>>>>> it
>>>>> was other health stuff, and mostly the fact that I was a commuter and
>>>>> not
>>>>> into the fraternity seen.  Sighted people at my school who were
>>>>> commuter
>>>>> students and transfers were in the same boat, and those individuals
>>>>> eventually became my friends.
>>>>> Don't take this the wrong way, but sometimes, I feel that there's a
>>>>> tendency
>>>>> to blain blindness for things like social issues, when there might be
>>>>> more
>>>>> at play than simply being blind.  Sure, blindness contributes, but
>>>>> sometimes
>>>>> there are multiple factors at play, and it's important to remember
>>>>> that.
>>>>> Sorry for the book, Just wanted to chime in and share my thoughts and
>>>>> experiences!
>>>>> Olivia
>>>>>
>>>>> "Have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow
>>>>> already
>>>>> know what you truly want to become.", Steve Jobs
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 2, 2011, at 4:12 AM, Caitlin Lynch - ACBS Second VP wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  Zack, that was an amazing description of a cartwheel! :)
>>>>>>    I think I can help a bit here with capture the flag. Picture a
>>>>>> field
>>>>>>
>>>>>> or
>>>>>
>>>>>> gym floor divided in half, with a line of cones or something marking
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> dividing line. there are two teams, one per side. Each team has a
>>>>>> flag,
>>>>>> which they store at some chosen point on their half of the court. The
>>>>>> flag
>>>>>
>>>>>> is visible to the other team and is normally stored as far away from
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> dividing line as possible. There is a guard to watch over the flag.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> point of the game is that members of opposing teams run across the
>>>>>> dividing line to try to grab the other team's flag. They can be chased
>>>>>> down by members of the opposing team and sent to 'jail', which
>>>>>> complicates
>>>>>
>>>>>> the game some. The only way they can be released is if someone from
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> team comes over the line to tag them out. If someone from one team
>>>>>> makes
>>>>>> it over to their own side of the court with the other team's flag,
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> win the game. I remember loving it as a kid.
>>>>>>    I played it in blind camp. The dividing line was always made with
>>>>>> very
>>>>>> thick tape,  so that you could feel it under your shoes as you ran.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> flags were beeper balls so you could target the sound as you tried to
>>>>>> obtain them. Its quite an easy game to play and quite an easy game to
>>>>>> adapt.
>>>>>>     In terms of p.e., I took adapted p.e.e until the eleventh grade.
>>>>>> It
>>>>>> was always in my iep, but I was never pleased with it. I went to
>>>>>> public
>>>>>> school and wanted to take regular gym like everyone else. In eleventh
>>>>>> grade, I swtched over. We had gym electibes in my school, since it was
>>>>>> so
>>>>>> big, like net sports, team sports, weight traianing, etc. I took a
>>>>>> movement explortation class in 11th grade, which was all about dance,
>>>>>> yoga, karate, etc. the teacher was great and would explain things like
>>>>>> moves to me in great verbal detail kif I didn't understand them. I was
>>>>>> successful though in that class because i had a friend who I'd known
>>>>>> since
>>>>>
>>>>>> I was seven or so who would be my partner and help mold my body
>>>>>> physically
>>>>>
>>>>>> if need be. In 12th grade, I took a project adventure course that
>>>>>> emphasized team building skills. it involved a lot of ropes courses,
>>>>>> rock
>>>>>> climbing, and really different activities. I made a good group of
>>>>>> friends
>>>>>> in the course, but the teacher was really unhelpful and the class was
>>>>>> really big, which was overwhelming. I had hoped to get a lot of the
>>>>>> course, but it didn't work out well at all for me.
>>>>>>    In terms of inclusion, I think I'm proff that it does work. I was
>>>>>> mainstreamed all along. When I was in elementary school, I went to a
>>>>>> resource room in 1st grade, where I could focus my braille skills.
>>>>>> This
>>>>>> was a service mostly for kids with learning disabilities, which I
>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>> have, and it didn't really work for me. Most of my tvi services were
>>>>>> right
>>>>>
>>>>>> in the classroom, where I could learn the skills I needed right along
>>>>>> with
>>>>>
>>>>>> my classmates, with my tvi serving as almost a co teacher. When there
>>>>>> weren't lessons she could seamlessly integrate those skills in to, I
>>>>>> got
>>>>>> pulled out. But I never felt like I missed anything of importance.
>>>>>> When
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> was in middle and high school, I would take a study hall period.
>>>>>> Normally,
>>>>>
>>>>>> we had room for one elective in middle school, so I used my tvi time
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> lieu of an every other day elective. The same went for high school,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> then I had more opportunities for electives, so it isn't like I missed
>>>>>> out
>>>>>
>>>>>> on that experience either. In high school, I normally took a full 9
>>>>>> period
>>>>>
>>>>>> schedule. In high school in my district lunch was something you could
>>>>>> opt
>>>>>> out of, and I did, to get as much out of my day as I could and I'd
>>>>>> just
>>>>>> eat in a sympathetic teacher's class or with my tvi, who is still to
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> day one of my most favorite people alive.
>>>>>>    I wish I had more to say on the residential vs. public school
>>>>>> debate.
>>>>>> It's always been a subject that fascinates me. I know that here, in
>>>>>> New
>>>>>> York, our services for the blind are excellent. I live in Long Island,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>> quintessential suburbs, and we're quite well known for tvi and o and m
>>>>>> services. There is a school for the blind near Manhattan, where the
>>>>>> services can be a bit lack  luster at times. There is also a school
>>>>>> near
>>>>>> Buffalo, fairly close to the order with Canada. I was always told that
>>>>>> schools for the blind, at least her in New York, are mostly for
>>>>>> multiply
>>>>>> disabled students. It was never an option for me to attend one,
>>>>>> because
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> got great services and actually had a solid group of friends in my
>>>>>> home
>>>>>> district. I'd love to see Perkins or ISVI or WCBVI where I have heard
>>>>>> really positive things about programing. I haven't heard so much about
>>>>>> our
>>>>>
>>>>>> residential schools here.
>>>>>> Caitlin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 2, 2011, at 1:58 AM, "Zack Olson [ACB Student Advocate
>>>>>> Editor]"<editor.acbstudents at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ashley,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not sure if my description will do any good, but a cartwheel is sort
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> like this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From a running start a person turns their body sideways.  If the last
>>>>>>> forward step was on the right foot, they would sort of throw their
>>>>>>> left
>>>>>>> foot outward and both arms up and outward diagonally. They would
>>>>>>> pivot
>>>>>>> their body sideways and downward, transferring their weight from
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> right leg to their right hand-which could then be placed flat on the
>>>>>>> ground. The transference of weight then continues ina circular
>>>>>>> motion,
>>>>>>> from the right nad to the left hand, then to the left foot, and than
>>>>>>> back
>>>>>
>>>>>>> to both feet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Ashley Bramlett
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 11:58 PM
>>>>>>> To: Discussion list for NABS,National Alliance of Blind Students.
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs] P.E. experiences
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hey Zach,
>>>>>>> Wow, that was nearly a novel there. I, too, was ignored in school and
>>>>>>> was during college as well. But I found students were at least
>>>>>>> pleasant
>>>>>>> and nice in college; I mean they'd say hi at least. And I was in a
>>>>>>> few
>>>>>>> clubs and felt more included than I did during public school
>>>>>>> activities.
>>>>>>> I guess the students I hung out with were more mature; after all they
>>>>>>> were in campus ministry with me; it was a catholic school.
>>>>>>> Good luck with designing a program of study. I made my own degree
>>>>>>> too:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> BA in liberal studies; was going to study psychology  but was afraid
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> doing statistics and really did not want to risk failing it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I see what you mean about residential schools. The students who I
>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>> opted to go to them had other challenges. They got some academics but
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> lower standard and the extra curricular activities.
>>>>>>> They got to have sports clubs and feel included. I've known students
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> track, wrestling, and cheerleading as well.
>>>>>>> I guess there's not a perfect answer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As to the sports in PE, they did play capture the flag in elementary
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> middle school. I recall it was on a field, maybe the football field.
>>>>>>> Now that I have a little more knowledge of the games, I believe they
>>>>>>> could be adapted. For instance, for kickball, you'd just need a
>>>>>>> beeping
>>>>>>> ball like they use in beep baseball and someone to talk at the base
>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>> you know where to run. Sounds like a fun game.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I' wish I could see a cartwheel. Someday, I'll get someone to show me
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> slow motion using a doll. I cannot exactly feel a person flying
>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>> the air doing one. The only gymnastics  move I got okay was a forward
>>>>>>> roll.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway, we'll see if others chime in later.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Zack Olson
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 12:38 AM
>>>>>>> To: Discussion list for NABS,National Alliance of Blind Students.
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs] P.E. experiences
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ashley,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You make a lot of very good points, and I agree with a lot of them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As far as inclusion goes, I was mostly an inclusion student, and like
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I rarely ever felt included. In fact, for the years of my educational
>>>>>>> career up until high school, I was bullied pretty mercilessly. The
>>>>>>> bullying was much less in high school, especially because I was never
>>>>>>> afraid to hit back. It may not have been the smartest way to handle
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> situations, but it kept people off my back more than the diplomatic
>>>>>>> approach ever did. In high school, the other students largely ignored
>>>>>>> me,
>>>>>
>>>>>>> the same way they do here at college, though these days it doesn't
>>>>>>> really
>>>>>
>>>>>>> bother me. There's a lot of people here I wouldn't want to hang out
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> anyway. <wlEmoticon-smilewithtongueout[1].png>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also spent two years at one of the residential schools that were
>>>>>>> *far*
>>>>>>> worse than my time in public schools. The problem with residential
>>>>>>> schools is that if you throw together a bunch of kids that have been
>>>>>>> neglected and bullied by their peers for so many years and give them
>>>>>>> some
>>>>>
>>>>>>> semblence of control by putting them in a residential school where
>>>>>>> everyone is "the same", they will sometimes misuse that control, and
>>>>>>> bully each other as mercilessly as any sighted kid ever did. Hell,
>>>>>>> sometimes the staff is so emotionally immature that they get involved
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> well. It's a self-contained community, a microcosm of the larger
>>>>>>> educational system and the larger society, but it has the potential
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>
>>>>>>> much more damaging. After all, if the people who are "just like you"
>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> accept you, who will? There's a lot of sighted vs. blind talk that
>>>>>>> goes
>>>>>>> around, but blind people can be just as damaging to one another as
>>>>>>> sighted people can.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In  my opinion, residential schools are great for students with
>>>>>>> multiple
>>>>>>> disabilities, because employees at the residential schools are better
>>>>>>> trained to attend to their specific needs, but residential schools
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> not necessarily good for students who are just blind or visually
>>>>>>> impaired. There are very few of the students that graduated with me
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>
>>>>>>> the years directly before or after me that have gone on to find
>>>>>>> gainful
>>>>>>> employment or attend college. I can count them on my two hands and
>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>> have fingers left over.  The residential schools set a lower standard
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>
>>>>>>> students, and that is as unacceptable as the public schools setting a
>>>>>>> lower standard for them. Also, their poor socialization and lack of
>>>>>>> knowledge about things that they would have been exposed to in public
>>>>>>> schools sets them further apart from "normal" people. Sometimes, the
>>>>>>> residential schools just aren't any better suited to teach students
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> blindness or visual impairment than the public schools.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I try to take a professional and unbiased stance on the concept of
>>>>>>> inclusion. It may not have worked entirely for me, but I have seen it
>>>>>>> work for some students, and those students are the ones that will end
>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>> making a great deal of difference in the fight for acceptance and
>>>>>>> equality. It is true that you cannot make nondisabled students be
>>>>>>> friends
>>>>>
>>>>>>> with disabled students, but some of them will end up liking the
>>>>>>> disabled
>>>>>>> students, not all of them, but some of them. Some kids are just
>>>>>>> jerks,
>>>>>>> and they don't grow out of it as adults. Others do grow out of their
>>>>>>> egocentrism and when they do, it will make a difference that they
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> had experience in being around people with disabilities.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Onto your other questions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sort of in between majors right now. I have been a psych major,
>>>>>>> journalism major (for one semester), an education major (studying to
>>>>>>> be a
>>>>>
>>>>>>> TVI), and thought about being an English major. Right now, I am in
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> process of designing a contract program that would allow me to major
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> assistive technology for the blind and visually impaired. Basically,
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> have to select a list of classes along with independent studies or
>>>>>>> internships, plus a capstone experience (like a thesis project or
>>>>>>> something of that nature) that would fall into the area of study that
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> am interested in. I also have to write a proposal justifying my
>>>>>>> choices
>>>>>>> and send the whole thing through two different advisory committees
>>>>>>> before
>>>>>
>>>>>>> it's official.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wanted to work possibly as a rehab teacher specializing in
>>>>>>> assistive
>>>>>>> tech, but would have had to get my undergrad in education first, as
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> RT program here is just at the masters level. I didn't want to deal
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> all the student teaching, classes I would never use, and ridiculous
>>>>>>> Illinois state certification standards-that don't make better
>>>>>>> teachers
>>>>>>> anyway-and then have to come back for a masters degree.  This way I
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> skip all of that garbage and avoid taking the GRE as well. Plus the
>>>>>>> field
>>>>>
>>>>>>> of assistive tech is really more about experience and skill, and I
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> both of those already. I am hoping to work in training people to use
>>>>>>> assistive tech, as a consultant on assistive tech/web accessibility,
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> possibly in R&D with one of the assistive tech companies, though my
>>>>>>> ultimate goal is to be a writer
>>>>>>> (novelist/journalist/nonfictionist/political commentator).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I graduated in 2004-though I would have graduated in 2003 if I had
>>>>>>> decided not to stay for a fifth year of mostly ADL-related classes at
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>>>> residential school.  So I also avoided the ridiculousness of
>>>>>>> standardized
>>>>>
>>>>>>> testing. Quite happy about that actually.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As far as the statement about math and reading deficiencies in
>>>>>>> students
>>>>>>> with visual impairments, I don't have an exact article or source to
>>>>>>> cite.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the field of education for the visually impaired, it is a
>>>>>>> generally
>>>>>>> accepted fact. That fact is based upon imperical information, but as
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> said, I am not positive of the sources. The head of the Visual
>>>>>>> Disabilities program here at NIU owns his own research firm, and I
>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>> ask him for specific citations if you'd like.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The reason that so many children with blindness and visual impairment
>>>>>>> develop deficiencies in math and reading is that they do not receive
>>>>>>> adequate early intervention or pre-school services from qualified
>>>>>>> professionals. It is also because-not necessarily through any fault
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> their own-many parents of children with visual impairment or
>>>>>>> blindness
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>
>>>>>>> not know how to adapt early childhood activities for their children
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> are not receiving the right instruction on how to do so from
>>>>>>> qualified
>>>>>>> professionals.  Any person with a visual impairment or blindness that
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> not good in math or reading need not be too hard on themselves.  Both
>>>>>>> reading and math are highly visual concepts, and the spatial concepts
>>>>>>> involved in math need to be adapted in very specific ways in order to
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> properly conveyed to a person with blindness or visual impairment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I myself am very lucky. I have always been very intelligent. I was
>>>>>>> usually one of the two or three smartest students in my classes
>>>>>>> throughout most of my educational career, at least until I got to the
>>>>>>> university level. I have always been pretty good at math, but find
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> since my vision has started to decline (I have retinitis pigmentosa)
>>>>>>> math
>>>>>
>>>>>>> is more difficult. I end up teaching most of the concepts to myself
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> the use of a CCtv and notes from class. In all the math classes I've
>>>>>>> taken in college, I've felt that going to class has been a waste of
>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>> about ninety percent of the time, since I end up just sitting and
>>>>>>> listening-or falling asleep-and then teaching the concepts to myself
>>>>>>> using the textbook later.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> About the observations I did during the course of my time as an
>>>>>>> education
>>>>>
>>>>>>> major: I do still have a sufficient amount of sight that I can gather
>>>>>>> some information visually.  Any other information I felt I needed to
>>>>>>> know, I would ask about directly.  The teachers I observed were very
>>>>>>> willing to spend a bit of extra time with me working out and
>>>>>>> discussing
>>>>>>> different aspects of whatever I had observed on a particular day. I
>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>> think I had one up on some of the other students doing observations
>>>>>>> becauseunlike them, I am a visually impaired student, and know the
>>>>>>> ropes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now onto sports and adaptations.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't really tell you how to adapt racket ball, since that's one
>>>>>>> I've
>>>>>>> never really played. Although, from my general concept of the game,
>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>> not sure that it would be easily adaptable for persons with visual
>>>>>>> impairment or blindness. I know it involves rackets ad bouncing a
>>>>>>> ball
>>>>>>> off the walls of a small room, but not much more than that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dodgeball could be fairly easily adapted by putting a bell or a
>>>>>>> beeper
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>
>>>>>>> the balls.  Basically in dodge ball, a court is divided into two
>>>>>>> sections, one team on each side, There are a certain number of
>>>>>>> balls-usually four to six I believe-that are split evenly between
>>>>>>> teams
>>>>>>> at the beginning of the first round. Basically when the whistle is
>>>>>>> blown,
>>>>>
>>>>>>> the teams just throw the balls at one another. If you get hit, you
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> out. It's very willy nilly actually. I used to stand behind other
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> and wait until they got hit, and then retrieve the ball from them as
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>
>>>>>>> left the court. LOL; If the ball had a bell or beeper in it-more
>>>>>>> likely a
>>>>>
>>>>>>> bell than a beeper-than a person with blindness or visual impairment
>>>>>>> would have a better chance of dodging it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can't help you with capture the flag. We never played that one in
>>>>>>> gym.
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs at acb.org
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> ----
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
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