American Council of the Blind 62nd Annual Conference and Convention
6/21/2023 8:00 PM

CONFIDENTIAL ROUGHLY EDITED REALTIME FILE
Compliments of HRICART.com

***************************************
This file was created in real time by a Human Realtime Captioner for the purpose of communication access. It is not a certified legal transcript and may not be entirely verbatim. It is intended for use by the consumer only as notes of the proceedings. A consumer should check with the presenter for any clarification of the presentation.

***************************************

AMERICAN COUNCIL OF THE BLIND
62ND ANNUAL CONFERENCE AND CONVENTION - RESOLUTIONS
JUNE 21, 2023, 8:00 PM
CONFIDENTIAL ROUGHLY EDITED REALTIME FILE
Compliments of HRICART.com
***************************************
This file was created in real time by a Certified Realtime Captioner for the purpose of communication access.  It is not a certified legal transcript and may not be entirely verbatim.  It is intended for use by the consumer only as notes of the proceedings.  A consumer should check with the presenter for any clarification of the presentation.
***************************************	

	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  We're about 30 seconds early so we will get started with the resolutions. 
	It will probably be another long evening so hopefully you were smart and got dinner already.  I did here, so that's good.  Fed the dog.  There are just a very few things I would like to go over before we get started with tonight's resolutions and before we turn the meeting over to First Vice President Ray Campbell.  We had great participation last night but I would like to remind you of a few things that will help you perhaps be a little more efficient in the process.  The first is that when you are wanting to speak for or against a resolution, we encourage you to think of this in terms of debate.  So you are going to have a statement that you want to make as to why people should support it or a statement that you'd like to make as to why people should not support it.   And we're hearing those as the debate. 
	Sometimes people will just say, this is a great resolution, I really like it, I'm going to vote for it -- or the other way 
-- and that's not really very helpful.  It is certainly your opinion and you have the right to use that, but that's probably not going to persuade people to vote the direction you'd like them to vote.  So you don't need to tell us your vote. 
	You're going to be getting an opportunity to vote.  So if that's what you're thinking about, we encourage you to not -- to not do that.  So that we can actually hear reasons to support or not support the particular resolution. 
	We're going to use the Q&A box this evening, and I will monitor that.  I will monitor it as closely as I can, but there's a few things going on here.  I want you to not use it for things like chat.  So I do not want any, you know, remarks addressed to me or any of the panel members or your opinions about anything.  But if you do have a point of order or during that process or if you do have a question during the question process and it's not getting answered and you're able to use the Q&A box, you can put it in there, keep it as brief as possible.  I'll try to catch that and make sure that Ray and Gabe are aware of it and make sure you have time if there is time in the process for you to share your question or concern or whatever, as long as they deem it in order.  So that will help with that. 
	The other thing is we are going to make an even larger effort to make sure that as we're calling on people that we try not to call on people who have been called on a lot.  We know that some people, either because of their technology or their skills can get their hand up faster and they get called on a lot.  So we will try to be a little more sensitive to that if we can.  It's challenging.  I have to tell you that our hosts this week have done a fabulous jobs and this is one of the hardest hosting jobs there is on the planet.  So I would appreciate so much if you're patient with them and with us. 
	This is just going to take time to do every night to get through these, and we only have 14, so you can imagine what it's like when there are more.  So I do want to encourage you to do that. 
	And finally, when you are called on to -- we will speak -- we will attempt Chris' recommendation to see how it goes tonight.  So we're going to start with the identifying the people who wish to speak in opposition to a resolution and then we will identify the number who wish to speak in favor, either one more or one less, depending on how that will go, because we -- by our standing rules, we can have up to one more.  But if there's not one more, then, you know, we'll stop there. 
	So if the resolution is actually being a lot opposed, that's probably not going to be true with any of these, but if that's the case, that's how it will work.  We think we'll get to our number of speakers a little faster.  If we rule someone out of order for what they wish to say as a speaker and positive or opposition, then we'll make an attempt to replace them if we can. 
	When you are waiting for your turn to speak in opposition 
-- someone is unmuted, the screen reader is talking.  When we are waiting for our turn to speak in pro or opposition, Travis, our host this evening, will give you the permission to talk.  Please stay muted after you've identified, confirmed after you 
-- after you've confirmed that you want to speak in favor or against, and if you will mute yourself back, Travis will be taking away your permission to talk after your time for speaking is -- he'll get to you as quickly as he can with everything else going on. 
	Ray will pause a little bit occasionally to make sure if there are any points of order we need to be dealing with that during the process of the voting.  That is a big challenge here.  Please don't put your hand up at any other time. 
	And my very last thing is hands.  There was a lot of feedback last night.  I absolutely understand.  There was a lot of feedback last night whether Zoom was accurately reporting your hand was up or down and you thought your hand was up or down.  Zoom is quirky that way, and the official up and down is up here, because we can't run all over the countryside to check yours.  I will tell you if you are using a screen reader, Zoom will sometimes tell you that your hand is raised, adamantly tell you that your hand is raised, even that it's going to lower your hand for you, and it's not raised.  And I have checked that piece out over and over against various Zooms and that's true. 
	So if your device is offering you this information, it has not necessarily a clue. 
	I was really getting some of that on my Mac last night.  So that doesn't mean that your hand isn't up or isn't down.  But don't bother to tell me because the reality -- or tell Ray, because the reality is we are going to go with the hands up here.  And so if we -- and we'll try to be more positive, assuming that if your hand is stuck up, then it is. 
	What I can tell you is that yeas and nays work the same in the room, when we yea and nay, you don't always know, truly, and to some respect, that's what the record vote is for if we have negatives.  My experience doing this kind of Zoom voting over time is that if the vote is really close, it might not be valid.  If the vote is pretty far off, it probably is.  And I will tell you whatever the smaller number is probably actually quite accurate and it's the larger number that may be a little off.  So if you have, you know, 150 yes votes and 32 no votes, it's going to be fair, because it's the 150 that's off, not the 32.  Zoom does have better voting tools. 
	We're not really able to use them because we're trying to accommodate all of our members as best we can.  So we have members who either don't have the skills, but we also have members who are calling on the telephone.  And in all that situation, they can't do that. 
	So we respect that, and that's why we're using this part of the tool, but it is not ideal.  We know that.  So, you know, the record vote is a possibility for that, but otherwise, it's -- there's not any point to tell us -- we can't solve it.  So it's going to be as accurate as it is.  With that, I think I have made about enough announcements.  So I am going to, once again, turn the meeting over to -- for First Vice President Ray Campbell who is going to lead us this evening and who is going to preside, and I will watch the Q&As.  Gabe will walk us through the resolutions and all of our help up here will help us up here like they are.  So thank you all for being here, and let's go, Ray!  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Thank you. 	They let me come back tonight. 	I guess I didn't screw up too bad last night. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  You were cheap. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  I work cheap.  That's right.  
	Good evening, ACB.  I'm going to be with you here again tonight.  One more thing that Deb didn't mention, if you can believe that, is that we really would like to make sure that we hear from the maker or a representative of the maker of a resolution.  So if the resolutions that we're going to do tonight were put forward by Alliance on Aging and Vision Loss, Council of Citizens with Low Vision International, again the Alliance on Aging and Vision Loss and two for -- if you could have people ready to speak -- you don't have to tell us who they are, but how many have hands up, debate, we're going to try to make sure that they're the first one that speaks so they can list the reasons why they would like us to support the resolution and reasons behind the resolution.  What that also will do, that will answer questions that maybe you have that during the -- the five minutes of questions and points of clarification and that, things that maybe we can't answer or can't answer as fully, having the maker speak to this will -- to the resolution will usually -- maybe will help with that as well. 
	So we're going to try to do that.  And so that being said, it gives me great pleasure to introduce my friend and fellow Helen Keller Buddy Gabe to walk us through resolutions. 
	Gabe.  Uh-oh. 
	>> GABE:  Okay.  First up for me, we have resolution 2003-07.  
	Resolution 2023-07 Amendment of Older Americans Act Submitted by the Alliance on Aging and Vision Loss.
	Whereas, the American Council of the Blind (ACB) has gone on record decrying the underfunding of services for seniors, including vision rehabilitation services provided under the Independent Living Services for Older Individuals who are Blind (OIB) program, as well as other health, social, and transportation services; and 
Whereas, as an example, the OIB program has not been provided with a funding increase in nearly 20 years, and current program funding is estimated to meet less than 3% of the national need; and 
Whereas, this organization, both on its own and as part of the Aging and Vision Loss National Coalition, is exploring ways in which additional funding can be obtained for OIB and other services for older Americans with vision loss; and 
Whereas, the primary legislative vehicle developed by the Coalition to comprehensively address federal policy and funding for the OIB and other critical national programs is Teddie-Joy’s Law, legislation which ACB has endorsed and for which ACB and the Coalition are pursuing congressional champions; and 
Whereas, one of the primary funding sources for senior services is the Older Americans Act (OAA) which must be reauthorized by the U.S.  Congress by September 30, 2024, in order for the many programs and services made available under the Act to continue to receive federal funding; and 
Whereas, funds under the OAA are distributed to each state for allocation to local Area Agencies on Aging (AAA’s) to fund local programs for prescribed purposes specified in the Act; and 
Whereas, very little funding is ultimately obtained through the OAA for services specifically targeted to older Americans who are blind or have low vision largely because the OAA does not explicitly designate vision loss as a purpose for which funds are allowed to be specifically expended; and 
Whereas, in order to enable funds to be targeted for programs and services for people with vision loss, the OAA must be amended to recognize “aging with vision loss” as a distinct and sizeable population of older Americans with unique and specialized needs; 
	Now, therefore, be it resolved in convention assembled that -- the American Council of the Blind in convention assembled that the American Council of the Blind and its affiliate the Association on Aging and Vision Loss work with the Aging and Vision Loss National Coalition and other entities for the introduction and passage of Teddie-Joy’s Law and legislation that would amend the Older Americans Act to explicitly recognize seniors with vision loss as a group whose needs must be specifically addressed by allocations of OAA funds.  End of Resolution 2023-07.  
	[Reading in Spanish] 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  The Resolution Committee recommends it do pass. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  There is an error in the language that we actually corrected but the recording had been made -- the official package had been printed and several people raised it here in the question box as well, it's the alliance in aging and vision loss, not association.  Gabe and I took that as a friendly amendment. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Currently that -- thank you for mentioning that.  I was going to ask about that, because that hopefully will head off a few questions. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Okay. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  We're now into the five minutes, if you have any questions or points of clarification that you need to bring forward, Travis will start calling on you. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  All right, Sharon.  Hold on.  Here we go. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  And Travis, if -- once you allow her to talk, if you could allow the next one, if there is a next one. 
	>> SHARON STRZALKOWSKI:  Pardon my asking this, but where do you find the question-and-answer box in Zoom in I'm not finding it. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  You have to tap on it. 
	>> SHARON STRZALKOWSKI:  On the iPhone. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  You should be able to swipe to it. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  It's not under more.  It's on your main screen. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Make sure you're on the latest of Zoom. 
	>> Who is next, Travis?  
	>> Todd. 
	>> TODD:  I'm not going to be giving my answer for or against because I'll be in the Zoom meeting later on. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  This is not appropriate, Todd. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Just vote either way, Todd. 
	>> TODD:  I'm sorry. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Okay. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Anybody else?  No?  Okay.  Well, that -- do we -- one more call, does anybody have a question or point of clarification that they need?  We did get one. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  We did. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Ms.  Diane, Scalzi, I believe. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Yes, it is Diane. 
	>> DIANE:  Is there any explanation of what Teddie-Joy's law is?  Without that, I would hesitate to vote one way or another on this resolution. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  If the maker from the resolution, if someone from the AAVL is on. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  I believe Jeff Thom is on.  He did threaten me last night that he would be here for this discussion.  Not threaten, promise. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  I will tell you this, Diane, it is named after one of the founding members of the aging and vision loss, a huge advocate. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Three or five years, probably.  Even though the explanation isn't in this resolution, I am fairly comfortable in saying that any accompanying letters and obviously, you know, when we go to seek legislation or anything like that, is, of course, going to have explanations on what the law would be. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  And it is, of course, very favorable to older Americans who are blind. 
	Anybody else, Travis?  
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Speaking of Jeff -- 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  I know if we talked about him long enough he'd be here. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  The hand. 
	>> CLARK RACHFAL:  This is Clark.  I'd be happy to defer to Jeff.  Otherwise, I would share that Teddie-Joy's law is to increase funding and services for older Americans with vision loss and I believe that ACB passed a resolution last year specifically supporting Teddie-Joy's law. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Yeah, if not last year, a couple of years ago. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  We have certainly done that.  Denise, how are we doing on time?  Denise, parliamentarian, how are we doing on time?  
	>> DENISE IRMINGER:  53 seconds. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  We can take one more. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Jeff is here. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Jeff, did you want to say anything more about Teddie-Joy's law at this point?  
	>> JEFF THOM:  I think I will wait until my debate.  I don't think I need to say more than Clark did. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay, Gabe, go ahead. 
	>> GREGG HOLLINS:  I would like a clarification for folks with the Q&A.  If you're on an iPhone, the Q&A is right next to the raise your hand button.  It's not labeled.  It just says button, for those folks that are -- right next to the raise your hand, swipe to the right. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Probably to the right. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Remember, we're in webinar.  Raise your hand is on your main screen if you're using an iDevice.  We are at time.  All right.  Here we go. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Peter, just one more thing on this.  Peter says up here in the Q&A that on his PC that if he's in full screen mode, this is under "more" in that case, but I'm not in full screen mode and it's right here, it's in different places depending how you have your Zoom. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  It could depend too whether you're a nonpanelist or not. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  So you've gotten some clarifications.  Okay.  We're going to go to debate now.  For our first 20 -- up to 20-minute debate period.  As we stated earlier, we're going to ask anyone wishing to speak against this resolution, please raise your hand.  Travis will call on you and you will confirm if you are speaking against.  Travis, do we have any hands?  
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Not yet. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Let's give it just a couple of seconds. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  I think I heard somebody there getting anticipatory.  
	[Laughter].  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  We have no opposition.  What we're going to do is give the maker of the resolution a chance to -- or somebody representing or from the affiliate a chance to speak for the resolution and then we're going to go to a vote. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Yeah, it should be Jeff. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  It's Jeff Thom. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  He's got permission. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Go ahead, Jeff. 
	>> JEFF THOM:  One preliminary item that Deb and Gabe, if I could.  I believe that the resolution says that there hasn't been an OIB funding increase for nearly 20 years and I should have caught this sooner, but I think we were told that should be nearly a decade.  So if we could make that change. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  I have it. 
	For sure. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Yeah, it's a friendly amendment, and it is accurate.  I remember talking about that.  Okay. 
	>> JEFF THOM:  Quickly, this resolution is attempting to have a twofold strategy in order to increase funding for specialized services for seniors with vision loss.  We're always looking for different pots of money to do it, and one of the most untapped sources and I won't go into too much detail at this point, is the Older Americans Act.  So the Older Americans Act needs to be reauthorized next year.  So our hoped-for strategy is to amend that act next year with references to funding for services for seniors with vision loss.  If we cannot do that, if it doesn't work out, when the act is being reauthorized next year, then we will work on a long-term strategy to include these amendments in our compendium law that was described for the seniors with vision loss, Teddie-Joy's law, and I believe that's all I need to say.  Thank you very much. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  The maker has spoken, there's no opposition. 
	We're going to proceed to a vote.  All hands lowered. 
	Nancy, our supervisor, are you ready?  
	>> NANCY:  I'm ready. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  All those in favor of the adoption of resolution 2023-07, please raise your hand.  And let us lower them.  
	>> NANCY:  We are settled. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  All right. 
	We'd like all hands lowered at this time, please.  And, again, please let us do this because -- and help us work through the quirks of Zoom, we will get through this together if we can work through the quirks of Zoom. 
	>> Travis, do you want me to catch the panelist side?  
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Sure. 
	>> Okay. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  I keep having to lower some hands. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Yeah, the panelist side doesn't respond to the lower hands section. 
	>> I'll do that.  
	>> There aren't that many of them. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Do we have all hands lowered?  
	>> No, there's still one hand up. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  I heard it. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  There's always one. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  It's down now.  Please, do not touch. 
	Work on that zap thing.  All right.  Now, we have gotten our vote in favor.  We're now going to ask all of those wishing to vote against adoption of resolution 2023-07, please raise your hand. 
	>> Okay.  We are settled. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Lower all hands, please.  And Nancy, can you give us the counts?  
	>> NANCY:  Sure can.  This is a first.  So the number of individuals for the resolution is 173.  Those against is 0. 
	And there are 221 individuals in Zoom at the time this was taken. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Obviously we do not need to call for a record vote and the resolution stands adopted. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  I do believe that's the basic definition of a unanimous vote. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Yes, it is. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  That's great. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  If it's all this easy, we'll be out of here really early tonight. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  He's out of order. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Mr.  Griffith, next resolution, please. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Next is resolution 2023-09.  
	>> Resolution 2023-09 Large Print Books and NLS.  Submitted by the Council of Citizens with Low Vision International.  
	Whereas, 90% of individuals who have significant vision loss have useful vision; and 
Whereas, many individuals with residual vision can and do read books that are available in large print; and 
Whereas, many public libraries and a few regional libraries in the National Library Service (NLS) system make large print books available; and 
Whereas, many so-called large print books available through public libraries are not of sufficient font to be readable by people with significant vision loss; and 
Whereas, there is no consistent system for production and distribution of large print books specifically aimed at meeting the unique needs of people with low vision; and 
Whereas, NLS currently distributes talking books and braille books and some circulars in large print; and 
Whereas, we recognize that the extent to which NLS can make available large print books is impacted by copyright implications; and 
Whereas, the Council of Citizens with Low Vision International (CCLVI) is a national organization dedicated to championing the needs of people with some existing vision; 
	Now, therefore, be it resolved by the American Council of the Blind in convention assembled that this organization, in conjunction with its affiliate CCLVI, believes that making large print materials available to people with residual vision is just as important as making recorded and braille materials available; and Be it further resolved that ACB and CCLVI hereby request that the National Library Service undertake a study to explore the feasibility of making large print books available; and Be it further resolved that the American Council of the Blind and CCLVI stand ready to work with NLS toward achieving this outcome; and Be it further resolved that NLS be encouraged to report its progress to the 2024 Conference and Convention of the American Council of the Blind and annually thereafter.  End of Resolution 2023-09.  
	[Reading in Spanish] 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  The committee recommends it do pass. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Let me head off something which I think people are wondering out there. 
	We went from 7 to 9.  It's not because your Resolutions Committee tonight know how to count. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  That's very possible. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Eight was withdrawn. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  We withdrew one last night and I should have -- 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Just to help people understand, the only way that a -- when the committee gets them, they number them so that they kind of have -- can keep track. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Approval, work with -- 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Yeah, and so the -- the only way that a resolution can come off the list, then, is if it's withdrawn, by the person or entity submitting them. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Right. 
	Right.  We need to say it was withdrawn by the author.  We weren't going to say, no, we don't like this one, kick it under the table, throw it into the corner. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Let the dog eat it. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Yeah, yeah, exactly. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  We are required by the bylaws to say whether it's by committee recommendation. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  When it's submitted to us, it gets a number, therefore, you know, when you see gaps in these numbers here, it's because the author, for various reasons, agreed to withdraw the resolution. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Yeah.  So I think that was -- we want to make sure, the numbers, make sure you understand that's how we do things. 
	All right.  That all being said, we are now ready for opening for any questions or clarifications that anybody might have.  Travis?  
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  We'll start with Denise.  Denise Colley. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  I thought she was over here on the panel. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  She has her hand up, though. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  You can unmute.  What is your -- 
	>> DENISE COLLEY:  No, no, put it down, please. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Okay.  Next one will be Doug Hall. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Doug Hall. 
	>> DOUG HALL:  It needs to be lowered. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Okay. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Next one. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Next one is Ted. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Go ahead, Ted. 
	>> TED CHITTENDEN:  Can you hear me?  I probably know the answer to this question, but is there a legal standard for large print?  And if so, should it be listed on this resolution?  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  I believe there is a legal standard. 
	Hopefully as we get into -- is there someone from CCLVI?  
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Yeah, I was going to say I saw [indiscernible] with her hand up and down.  I think that would be the -- I recall discussing this in -- when we were hearing this resolution in committee.  And I want to say that there are no legal standards, it's more best practices.  Patti, if you're around. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  If we can find Patti Cox and allow her to talk -- 
	>> PATTI COX:  Can you hear me?  There is not a legal standard. 
	There is a best practices.  But this resolution would make it to where we want them to -- to research and come back to us about using different fonts because I could use one font and Zelda might use another font and someone else might use another font.  So it would be where the large print could be made to the person, for what they want, just like if you want audio or do you want Braille. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Gotcha.  So stay there.  We were just getting into debate.  I assume the representative of CCLVI will give you a chance to speak for it as the making affiliate. 
	Hang tight there.  Do we have any other hands, Travis?  
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Can we do the Q&A box as well?  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Please. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Mary asks, regarding first resolve, do we really resolve to believe?  She is worried about the wording there. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  I think Patti -- I believe what -- or Deb -- I believe basically we wanted to just go on record saying we believe that large print is just as important as Braille and audio, and I think that wording, I know it sounds a little bit odd, but it's the best we could do, basically saying that we -- 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  It's really kind of affirming, affirming what they believe.  I mean, the -- yes. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  There's another question, but I'm going to wait until -- we have another one.  The one I was looking at, we're going to wait until we're not debating because the question and answer is related to a resolution and then we can use that if you choose. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Travis, do we have any more?  
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Yes, Rosanna. 
	>> ROSANNA BEAUDRIE:  Yes, I thought the standard was 16-point, which was what I thought the standard for large print has always been.  I think it's a great resolution. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Go ahead.  You're there.  You're there. 
	>> ROSANNA BEAUDRIE:  My only question is, is there a way that in the resolution they could come up with a type size that would be amenable to people with low vision?  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  That's something, I think, that would be a part of the research work if we pass this, that we'll be working with NLS on. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  As Patti said, there is no defined law. 
	Same with large print.  It's more best practices and trying to nail it down to what would be best is I think the hope of with are we go. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  I have another question in the box. 
	Anisio would like to know if they are considering electronic means as part of the resolution. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  That was discussed in the resolution, and the thing is that NLS doesn't actually have anything that would [indiscernible] at this point. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  They wanted paper books.  This is about paper books. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Thank you, Denise.  Go ahead, Gabe. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Did you want to take the questions at this point or do the debate or do you have other questions concerning -- 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Pardon me?  I'm sorry, yes. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  You had a question that you were going to take -- 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Yes, Debbie asked why the resolutions are being read both in English and Spanish when we have a Spanish channel. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  That would be a good audio -- 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  You have no idea, right?  Why we are doing that is actually that we cannot -- we have the English ones played from the recording.  We want everyone to hear the recordings. 
	If we play the Spanish resolutions from the recording they'll play over the top of the English and the people -- everyone would hear them both simultaneously.  So we decided the easiest technical way so everyone gets the same benefit of the same recording and no translation, since they're not being read out loud by one of us and our interpreters, we are going ahead and playing both resolutions back-to-back. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  All right.  Good.  And at some point can we find out the name of the wonderful gentleman who is reading these things?  
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Adam, AI voice from 11 labs.  Isn't he an awesome reader?  He really is.  And they have a female version.  You'll hear her on some other documents and things that we have. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  If we have -- I can't remember if Adam 
-- we used in California, but we had an AI voice reader in California this spring and it went really well. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  It was Adam. 
	The moral of AI, moving into AI. 
	We're going to debate.  If there is anyone who would like to speak against this resolution, please raise your hand.  Against the resolution, if you'd like to speak against the resolution.  Do we have hands, Travis?  
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Yeah, it looks like we have a couple. 
	They are jumping. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Again, folks, let us lower your hands unless you want to speak against, do not raise them.  Looked like a couple there. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  A -- Ann and Michael.  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  We have you against.  Any more?  
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Yeah, a 502 phone number. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Are you speaking against at 502?  
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Ending in 472?  
	>> ADAM:  This is Adam in Louisville.  A point of order, dealing with the legality, that I didn't have a chance to get in, I worked at the Kentucky [indiscernible] library from '84 to '87, and during that time the post office considered 14 point or larger for large print and 18 point is the American printing house uses when they have large print textbooks.  I guess you would say 14-point would be the legal size since the post office does accept that. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Let's let, once CCLVI speaks to that, we know that's what they use.  I think we could safely say, but there's no official standard. 
	But you mentioned free matter. 
	But there's no official standard like there is, say, with Braille codes and things like that, is what it sounds like to me.  I'm not a large-print person, but thank you.  That is good information to have, Adam. 
	Thank you.  Okay.  Let's -- so we have one person speaking against unless there are other hands, Travis. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Not at this time. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  One person against.  What we're going to do, we're going to now take any speakers for.  We want to take Patti Cox.  So Patti is definitely in the first, in the queue.  So then we're going to have -- we're going to take one more "for," what we're going to do, we're going to hear from Patti, CCLVI, Ann against, and one more.  Who is that lucky person, Travis?  
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Steve Heesen, if I'm saying that right. 
	You're speaking for?  
	>> STEVE HEESEN:  Yes, I am, sir.  Patti is representing CCLVI, Ann Byington before and Steve Heesen.  Patti Cox.  
	>> PATTI COX:  Am I unmuted?  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  You sure are.  
	>> PATTI COX:  We made this resolution because if you're a large-print reader, number one, you may not be able to read the best-practices font.  You do not have -- not in all places do we have books that can be printed -- if you live in a rural area, you're not able to get to a library, you cannot read actual paper books.  When you do go to a library, there's a very small section of large-print books.  You are bound by a very select few books.  And we just would like large print to be available to us, just as Braille and audio is available for those who choose audio or Braille. 
	I understand with everybody thinking, well, there's electronics.  Some people don't read with electronics because they can't sit and read a screen for various reasons to read a book.  So reading a paperback book would be their choice. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Thank you, Patti.  We'll now go to Ann Byington. 
	>> ANN BYINGTON:  I wrote this, so I'm going to read it, and it will sound a little choppy, but we'll do it anyway.  I don't quibble with the statistics reported in the resolution regarding the number of people with vision loss or the need for more large print books. 
	However, the suggestion that NLS provide a study of cost and feasibility of producing more large print books and an annual report to ACB's national convention every year is unreasonable and unrealistic. 
	NLS recently discontinued talking topics in large print presumably because of funding issues and probably that they're not being utilized by very many people.  It is true that the population of visually impaired persons who might be borrowing these books is getting older. 
	One might suspect that the need for storage large print books, both in library's physical facilities, apartments, retirement homes, assisted living facilities, and nursing homes, as well as the weight, size, and says requirements for storing large-print books will be prohibitive for people. 
	Also, it should be noted that the fact of -- the fact that the availability of large print reading materials has been greatly expanded by Amazon Kindle as well as the availability of inexpensive tablets.  Additionally, the need for increased font size, changing screen colors and the level of contrast can all be adjusted to meet the reader's specific needs on those devices. 
	I suspect given NLS' recent move to Braille on demand that the -- 
	>> DENISE IRMINGER:  Time. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay, thank you, Ann.  And our last speaker is Steve Heesen. 
	>> STEVE HEESEN:  Can everybody hear me?  I'm definitely in favor of -- for it.  I'd like to hear an update about how this is going for getting more large-print books, and I wasn't sure if I should speak for or against, but I'm speaking for.  I believe if people who read large print do not have the books they would like to read in large print they should be offered the opportunity to use the magnification tool of their choice and I think that would be less expensive in the long run and I think that's the way things are going.  Large print is great.  When I was younger, I used magnification device because the print books were black print on white letters and I couldn't read them because of the glare.  So I was able to switch the contrast to white on black, and that's just example of a situation that comes into play when people are trying to read.  It's not just the size of font, the type of font, it has to do with lighting and the clarity of the font available. 
	With magnification, you can go from 8-point up to 100 or whatever is needed along with the lighting option and the contrast option and the reverse image option and that's really all I had to say.  I don't know if that means I have to move to amend the resolution for whatever, but I'm in favor of an update of where it stands. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  It seems to me, assuming this resolution is adopted, it seems that any and all options for getting large print to be explored.  I think just from my reading of the resolution, it seems that that would be efficient.  But that's all I'm going to say on that. 
	I'm not supposed to be -- 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  We have a point of order, I'm taking it that way, from Anisio, who says that technically, the last speaker's comments were in opposition to the resolution as it's written, so he wonders if we consider that in opposition. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  I'm not because -- the way I was looking at that, Anisio, was that he was -- the speaker was offering options for this, and I -- I don't think the resolution is really prescriptive in terms of what it has to do.  I think -- I think that -- I think that the resolution, you know, gives enough leeway for everybody working together to do that. 
	But, you know, I'm -- I'm willing to be overruled.  I'll defer to the parliamentarian. 
	>> DENISE IRMINGER:  Only that I heard he didn't, at first, he didn't know whether to vote for or against it.  He made that clear when he started his statement. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  He said he was for and -- I'm going to say it's an option, the option to comply with the resolution.  That's -- 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Okay. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Maybe that's a fuzzy ruling and I'm certainly -- I'm certainly not infallible, so -- okay.  So we're going to go ahead then and take the vote.  Let's lower all hands, please. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  These hands that are going up for point of order, a bunch of hands, it sounds like they're going up. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  We're going to the vote.  Again, please do not touch your devices until I ask you to vote yea or nay. 
	>> NANCY:  Ray, all hands are lowered right now. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  All those wishing to vote in favor of resolution 2023-09, please raise your hand. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Just while that's happening, I want to mention those of you are sending into the Q&A box, I'm positive I'm seeing 100% of the Q&As and I'm bringing forward all of the ones that are in the point of orders at any time, point of order, I guess they are, and then, in the course of the first part, the questions that can be asked.  All of the different great comments that people are sending in about various ways to get large print actually are chat.  So I can't bring this forward.  But I do see them, but I'm not ignoring you.  I guess I am. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Too bad we couldn't save those, assuming the resolution is adopted, you could add them to the comments to go out and work on these.  We want the people to work on the resolution if it's adopted. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  I think the term would be, you're not maliciously ignoring them. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  I'm not ignoring them at all.  I'm reading them all.  I'm not carrying them forward. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  And we're not doing what a lot of webinars do when they have the chat and the Q&A both.  You want to talk about a mess for the screen reader. 
	>> NANCY:  Ray, we are settled. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  We are settled.  All hands lowered, please. 
	Something I -- as we're getting our hands all lowered here, so you all know, those of us on the panel, with the exception of me, are voting, so we can do that. 
	Of course, I can't, because I'm presiding.  And I am not. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  The committee chair, I for the record, as the committee chair, I am choosing not to vote.  All hands are down. 
	>> NANCY:  All hands are down. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  All those wishing to vote against resolution 2023-09, please raise your hand. 
	>> NANCY:  Okay.  We are settled. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Let me get back off mute again here. 
	Okay.  Okay.  I was off mute, then I was on mute.  Okay. 
	Nancy, can we have the counts, please?  
	>> NANCY:  Those who voted for the resolution, 146.  Those who voted against the resolution was 46 and there were 242 people in Zoom at the time that we voted. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  That is 100 votes separates the winners from the opposition.  However, are there 25 people who voted in opposition -- hands down, first. 
	>> NANCY:  Yes, thank you. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Hands down first. 
	>> NANCY:  Okay.  All hands are down. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Are there at least 25 people who voted in opposition that would like us to have a record vote on this resolution?  Give it a few seconds. 
	>> NANCY:  Okay.  We have settled. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  How many hands do we have?  
	>> NANCY:  16. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  There being less than 25 people raising their hands, we will not have a record vote on this resolution. 
	Therefore, the chair rules it is adopted.  All right. 
	Mr.  Griffith. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Okay.  And before I introduce this one, I just want to head off a couple of questions here.  It looks like we have the same editing we had on the first night that we're going to have to change. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Association to alliance. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  That's correct. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  When you hear association on aging, do not be alarmed. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Translate it to alliance in whatever language you are listening. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  It will be changed before publishing and final edits and all that stuff, 2023-10 by the Alliance on Aging and Vision Loss.  
	>> Resolution 2023-10 Funding Increase for the Older Individuals who are Blind Program Submitted by:  Jeff Thom and Association on Aging and Vision Loss. 
	Whereas, the only major program that provides specialized services to seniors with vision loss is the federal Independent Living Services for Older Individuals who are Blind (OIB) program; and 
Whereas, this program provides funding to every state, territory and the District of Columbia for services that include daily living skills, assistive technology devices and services, orientation and mobility, home modifications, and self-determination; and 
Whereas, less than 3% of program-eligible older Americans experiencing vision loss receive OIB services; and 
Whereas, the number of older Americans with vision loss is expected to double by 2050; and 
Whereas, the federal funding level of approximately $33 million has not been increased in nearly 20 years; and 
Whereas, the Biden Administration, in its 2024 fiscal year budget, has proposed a $5 million increase in OIB funding; and Whereas, Congressional action to provide for this increase would be an initial step toward ensuring that seniors who are blind or have low vision receive the specialized services they need in order to maintain or increase their independence.  
	Now, therefore, be it resolved by the American Council of the Blind in convention assembled that this organization along with its affiliate, the Alliance on Aging and Vision Loss (AAVL), commend the Biden Administration for including the $5 million increase in OIB funding in its proposed fiscal year 2024 budget; and Be it further resolved that these organizations aggressively advocate with the appropriate Congressional leaders and committees to secure inclusion of this proposed increase in the final fiscal year 2024 spending legislation.  End of Resolution 2023-10.  
	[Reading in Spanish] 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  First, I think it's weird to hear 2023 to ten, and the alliance in aging and vision loss being resolved. 
	That being said -- 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Did you have some questions in the Q&A box?  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Go ahead and give me your recommendation there.  Assuming you have one. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Yes, when I'm babbling on, the Resolutions Committee recommends we do pass, and I would so move. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  We had one question, and that is, possibly, and that is that resolution also stated that the funding had not been increased in over 20 years. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  We'll make the same change. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  I was going to say, we will make the same change on that one. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Okay. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  We're into our five minutes of questions and clarifications. 
	What I'm going to do is alternate between the Q&A box and hands.  Let's go Q&A box first. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Okay.  The question is, is this similar to the resolution that we discussed at 07 is what they're referring to.  What is the difference?  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  The difference is, and Jeff, please correct me if I am wrong, the difference is, in 07, we were talking about the Older Americans Act and amending it.  This is talking about the older Americans who are blind program and getting increased funding for it. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  And in the first one, we're talking about the OAA as well as Teddie-Joy's law and in this one, we're talking about the fiscal budget that the Biden Administration put an extra $5 million in, so we'll be advocating to keep that in. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  So we want that to stay. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Laws versus budget. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Got it.  First hand, Travis?  
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Janeen. 
	>> JANEEN LEA:  My question is twofold.  I just think maybe for expedition, maybe we have the person putting the resolution forward -- 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  We'll do that. 
	>> JANEEN LEA:  Then we can see if we're going to talk for it or against it, those of us who don't understand the jargon.  [Overlapping speakers].  and then how come [indiscernible] five nos?  Why are there more than the other?  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Again, remember the standing rules.  We can take one more on either side because we want to have the maker to have an opportunity to speak.  That's why we do that. 
	>> JANEEN LEA:  Thank you, guys. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  I want to raise a concern about what Janeen is asking for.  She is asking for the maker to speak before we take the yeses and nos so she and others can decide how they would want to speak.  This is not about deciding how you want to speak.  This is about deciding how you want to vote.  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Exactly. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  I don't believe we should take the maker prior to -- they should definitely be one of the -- 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  We are -- we are doing what we are -- said we are going to do and we can't have extra debate for the maker. 
	So we're going to continue to do what we've been doing, but we will have the maker or representative go first so you can all hear.  Remember, if you initially say, hey, I'm against this, and the maker speaks and makes a point that changes your mind, you can always relinquish your spot.  Always remember that. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Doug has -- I guess I'm next, right?  Doug has a friendly amendment. 
	He -- Doug Powell.  He said that in committee that we agreed to add the words -- I'm sorry, after "independence" in the last whereas we agreed to add "or delay the need for institutionalization." I don't recall that.  When Jeff speaks to this, because Jeff was on the committee and on the call, maybe he can address, if he recalls we did that, we would take it as a friendly amendment. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  I prefer to leave that to Jeff. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Otherwise it would have to be proposed by Doug as an amendment. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Yes.  And that certainly is within his right. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  So next hand. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Mary Haupt. 
	>> MARY HAUPT:  I hope I'm saying this in the right place, but in one of the whereas clauses, it lists a bunch of services that would be provided by the program, and I just thought that perhaps the service of Braille ought to be included. 
	I know that can go under skills of daily living, but, you know, sometimes Braille tends to get overlooked by these organizations and I'm just wondering if that might be a good thing to add in. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  OIB already covered that. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  What you're referring to was just, you know, a sample of services that are -- or can be covered under OIB funding.  I don't think it was mentioned to be exhaustive, just a summary. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Time, Denise?  
	>> DENISE IRMINGER:  Time. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  We are at time.  We are going to move to debate.  So if we could have all hands lowered. 
	>> NANCY:  All hands are lowered. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Let's keep Jeff Thom in the back of our minds here when we get to fors. 
	Is there anyone who wishes to speak against this resolution?  Please raise your hand. 
	Okay.  We do have one raised hand.  So 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Ending in 364. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  We will say that is the only person opposed. 
	So we will now ask, once that hand has been lowered -- 
	>> NANCY:  With the -- we need to know who it is. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Who are you, and are you planning to speak against?  Star 6 will unmute you.  Star 6. 
	What would be the best course of action here?  They did raise their hand. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  They have to be able to unmute.  Why don't you take Jeff's testimony and then -- 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  We'll come back to this person.  If they are able to unmute and if they still choose to speak against, what we will do is take one more for after that.  So let's take -- let's go ahead and take Jeff Thom and representative -- if we can get you unmuted.  I guess you are. 
	>> JEFF:  Thank you.  So with respect to Doug's amendment, yes, we did take that in committee, Deb.  I think the wording would be after "independence" in the last whereas clause, it would be, "and to delay -- I think it should be and to prevent or delay placements in institutionalized settings.  Do you want me to repeat that?  
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Just a moment.  Here in a second. 
	>> NANCY:  Deb, you're not muted. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  I'm not supposed to be muted.  I'm talking.  Okay.  Go ahead, Jeff. 
	Give me that again. 
	>> JEFF:  And to prevent or delay placements in institutionalized settings. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Thank you. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  And you will take that as friendly. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Yes, we will take that as friendly. 
	>> NANCY:  I also have it.  [Overlapping speakers].  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Jeff, continue, sir. 
	>> JEFF:  We are very pleased that the Biden Administration has recommended an increase in OIB funding.  As you know, we haven't had any in a decade. 
	It's going to be an uphill battle, especially in light of the debt battle to get this increase, but we really need to fight for it.  If we don't get it this year, we come back and fight for it next year.  I think as advocates, ACB and AAVL should be leading the fight and just to quickly address the one point that was made in difference between the two resolutions, amending the Older Americans Act would allow us to have additional funding for all sorts of services, including these, and this is a direct funding service for OIB, and that's the difference.  Thank you. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Thank you, Jeff.  So we've now heard one for.  Phone number, 206, ending in 364.  Were you able to get unmuted?  
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  They're still muted. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  It's star 6, and they do have permission to talk, right, Travis?  
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Yes. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  It's star 6. 
	If you can't, I'll unfortunately not be able to recognize you, which means we will be done and moving to a vote, because we would have heard one more than zero. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  And they could have also changed their mind. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  I'm going to go ahead and declare that we have no opposition, therefore -- he lowered it. 
	>> NANCY:  Yeah, they lowered it.  They weren't able to talk and then they lowered. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Good enough. 
	I'm going to declare in that case we have no opposition and we've heard the maker of the resolution, so we're now going to proceed to the vote. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  That lowering was my fault. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  That's okay. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  You're good. 
	Now, all hands are down?  
	>> NANCY:  All hands are lowered. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay. 
	Anything in Q&A at this point, Deb?  
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  No, we're good. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Let's roll. 
	All those wishing to vote in favor of resolution 2023-10, to quote Adam, please raise your hand. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  So not only do we have to learn to speak screen reader, we have to speak AI as well. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  When he got to the triple-A, he said, ah, ah, ah, and I liked that too. 
	That was fun. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Like I said, not only are we going to have to speak screen reader, we're going to have to speak AI.  I'm going to ask Jeff to make sure he doesn't run off before the next be resolution because I'm going to ask him to be the representative. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  I like how he said, ooh ah ah.  I which we -- Deb, I think we should just let Adam preside over the whole convention and we can go drink coffee and sit back there. 
	Maybe not. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Getting some comments in the chat about hand raising and I want to remind you, we're catching them as best we can.  None of these votes have been close, so when they are, that's when we'll try to deal with any discrepancies. 
	But some people are reporting that their hand is -- they believe is lowering when they don't mean for it to be. 
	Just try to put it up. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  It's also the quirks of Zoom, guys. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Yeah, it's just the way it is. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  If I may reemphasize, if you raise your hand and then leave your device alone, we will take care of it, getting it lowered. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  We will do the best we can.  What they're saying is that Zoom is lowering their hand.  They're not touching it.  And then when it shouldn't.  All I'm saying is we're acknowledging you're saying that, and we can't resolve it. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  There is that feature. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  When you get 125, 150 people raising their hands, Zoom gets -- 
	>> NANCY:  Okay.  We are settled. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Let's lower all hands, and there is a feature in some version of Zoom, I've heard recently, it says, it sounds like you're done talking. 
	I'm going to lower your hand. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  When the chat, someone is objecting to the fact that we have seemingly made fun of the pronunciation of the Spanish, and we're not -- we should not be doing that, and I apologize.  The thing that we are making fun of is how the AI voice is -- whether it's Spanish or English.  It's probably not appropriate.  So my apologies for that. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Mine too. 
	Mine too. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  And I apologize as well. 
	>> NANCY:  Okay, Ray, all hands are lowered. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  All those wishing to vote in opposition to resolution 2023-10, please raise your hand. 
	>> NANCY:  Okay.  We are settled. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Nancy, can we have the count?  
	>> NANCY:  Those for the resolution, 183.  Those against the resolution, 0.  And there are 235 people in Zoom during the vote. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Our second unanimous vote of the night. 
	Obviously, there being no need to request a record vote, the chair here rules the resolution is adopted.  Has her hand up, we probably should take that before we move on.  Can we give Carla permission to vote?  
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Done. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Carla. 
	>> CARLA RUSCHIVAL:  It was an accident.  Sorry. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  No problem.  No problem.  Okay. 
	Good. 
	>> CARLA RUSCHIVAL:  Keep it rolling. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  We will. 
	Okay.  Speaking of rolling, next resolutions chair, what have we got next?  
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  We have up next, resolution 2023-11.  
	>> Resolution 2023-11 Vending Facility Equipment.  Submitted by California Council of the Blind.  
	Whereas, historically, Randolph-Sheppard vendors did not pay for equipment used to operate the vending location, such as appliances, cash registers, and card readers; and 
Whereas, instead, states purchased equipment using federal funds, along with matching funds from various sources; and 
Whereas, in some states, the required match for the purchase of equipment is obtained through funds collected from Business Enterprise Program (BEP) vendors by state licensing agencies, with these funds being known as set-aside funds; and 
Whereas, the Rehabilitation Services Administration (RSA), in the U.S. Department of Education, and the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) adopted a regulatory requirement which limited a state’s ability to purchase BEP equipment to the amount of $5,000 or more; and 
Whereas, the result of this decision required a BEP vendor to make purchases of equipment under $5,000; and 
Whereas, in light of the pandemic, RSA and OMB subsequently revised this requirement by reducing the threshold which must be met before the state may purchase equipment from $5,000 to $1,000; and 
Whereas, due to such equipment expenses for the vending facility, and in light of shrinking operator income due to fewer patrons because of the pandemic, the $1,000 maximum remains a burdensome cost when a vendor must purchase such equipment as coffee makers, cash registers, card readers, and microwave ovens that are below the $1,000 threshold; 
	Now, therefore, be it resolved by the American Council of the Blind in convention assembled that this organization urge the Rehabilitation Services Administration and the Office of Management and Budget to eliminate the prohibition against a state using federal and matching funds for the purchase of equipment valued at less than $1,000.  End of Resolution 2023-11.  
	[Reading in Spanish] 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Okay, the Resolution Committee recommends is do pass, and I will so move. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  It's been moved that the recommendation do pass, so we are now into our debate.  Last time we started with the Q&A box, so I'm going to start with hands this time. 
	>> DENISE COLLEY:  Questions. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  I said that -- didn't I?  
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Sorry about that -- you did. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Sorry about that, folks, you get rolling. 
	Sorry about that.  I'm going to start with hands first this time since we started with Q&A last time.  Travis?  
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Ardis. 
	>> ARDIS BAZYN:  Yes, and I will be the one answering people's questions about the resolution. 
	And I just wanted to ask if you could add behind ACB and its affiliate, [indiscernible] of America, to resolve. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  I don't see any problem.  It was not there because it was originally CCB that put the resolution.  If you're stating that RSVA would support the amendment, I would think that's a friendly amendment, right, Gabe?  
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Yes, I would agree. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  We can do that.  Q&A box?  
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  The only comments is about AI, and I appreciate everyone's enthusiasm, but please stop. 
	Because I'm looking for -- 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  AI might be writing those.  You don't know. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  That's right, coming from ChatGPT.  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Matt Selm, go ahead. 
	>> MATT SELM:  I don't know how long this minimum threshold was in effect, but has ACB not called for the previous elimination of this threshold for matching funds?  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Ardis, if you're there, can you answer?  
	>> ARDIS BAZYN:  Yeah.  I don't know if ACB has, but I know that RSVA had asked the RSA rep to consider lowering it because we were opposed when it was $5,000 and nothing was done and states got around it by doing a package of -- some states got around it by doing a package of purchases all together in one incident it would be over $5,000.  But all they did was during the COVID, they did -- well, left it at $1,000, but we're still opposed. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  And I think, I don't recall in recent years any resolutions on this particular topic. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  It would have in the last couple because this is really a "since COVID" issue. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  I don't remember seeing anything on this topic. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Next thing. 
	Do we have anything in Q&A?  
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  No, we don't. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  So hands. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Niral. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Niral. 
	>> NIRAL SHETH:  I have a point of clarification. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Sure, go ahead. 
	>> NIRAL SHETH:  $5,000 on machine [indiscernible]?  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  No, Ardis, please go ahead. 
	>> ARDIS BAZYN:  Nothing to do with accessibility, per se. 
	It's equipment, like the readers that go on your vending machines to read how much money is going into the machine and any reader that they use on the machine, whether it's accessible or not, the vendors have to pay for them, some as little as $38 but some over $100, and that could be a lot of money to put out of pocket if the purchase is under $1,000, so it's not really anything to do with accessibility per se. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  No.  Good question. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  I have a question here. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  We'll take that. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  This individual is asking, what is the difference between a friendly amendment and a regular type amendment?  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  That -- 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  A friendly -- 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  An amendment is proposed, the committee says, yes, we'll take that as friendly. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Usually it has to be -- these have been related to corrections in the document itself, but we don't need the audience, we don't need the members to vote on what we intended to do is what we still intend to do.  If it should change the tenor of the resolution, then we would -- 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Yeah, if it would change the thrust of the resolution, usually. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Yes.  How are we doing, Denise?  
	>> DENISE IRMINGER:  Time. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  We're hitting it right on.  Now, all hands down, please.  Now, we are going to do as I said earlier, but we are actually going to do it this time.  We're going to -- you want to get better at that, I don't know.  We're actually now going to go into debate.  Is there anyone who would like to speak in opposition to this resolution?  Please raise your hand.  We will -- got any hands, Travis?  
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  I see one so far and that's Janeen. 
	>> JANEEN LEA:  Yes, I'm in opposition. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Let's give it a few more seconds in case anyone is having trouble finding their controls. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Can't find their hands.  In Zoom, that's a real issue. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  They're all over the place.  Anyone willing to speak for, and we will include Ardis in that.  Do we have any other hands besides Ardis?  
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Kathy Dawsonn. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Are you speaking for, Kathy?  As soon as we get you unmuted there. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Sending an unmute request. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Just want to make sure you're speaking for, because -- Kathy, are you able to unmute?  
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  No response yet. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  No response yet.  Okay.  We're going to move on to the next hand, if we have one. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Deanna Noriega. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Deanna, are you speaking for?  
	>> DEANNA NORIEGA:  Yes. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  We have the speakers, then, our maker and one each way.  Our two for, two against, which is our rules.  So we'll go to debate.  The first I will recognize is Ardis to speak in favor of the resolution. 
	Ardis?  
	>> ARDIS BAZYN:  Yes, this has been a problem for a few years. 
	Of course, it was less of a problem when this was $5,000 and this was resolved by speaking to RSA about it.  Our previous vendor in CCB brought it forward to CCB and RSV, obviously, is for it, because there are many vendors who cannot afford a lot of equipment purchases and part of the issue is that vendors in most states actually have to pay a fee every month, it's generally a percentage of what their net is, into the fund that then they can't use it for these smaller purchases so it's really pretty unfair that they have to pay into this and perhaps the only thing they ever use it for is for these small purchases. 
	So we just think it needs to be changed to what it was before the last -- I don't know, five or six years ago that they put the limitations in there 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Thank you.  We'll now hear from Janeen Lea. 
	>> JANEEN LEA:  Can I get the 30 seconds?  I believe we should vote in opposition to this.  When you are a vendor and you own your vending machine, you own your business and I don't believe the state should match your funds and help you.  I get it, we have the -- the BEP enterprises, I forget what that stands for, because I don't say it a lot aloud.  If you're in that program, that's cool, and they help you get started.  It's a business.  Anyone who has business has costs.  You have to pay for more paper.  You have to pay for more paper clips.  You have to pay for a lock when it breaks.  You can't expect the state to pay for your lock and your rent.  You can't expect the state to keep up your equipment just because you're in that program.  And the federal government, that's why you own a business.  You have to budget for that.  I realize you don't have enough money, but that is the profession you chose.  If you choose to work at McDonald's or Jamba Juice or Disney World, you chose that and you need to make it work and not ask the state.  The state is dealing with so many people.  There are so many other things they need to put their money for.  So if you own your business, you need to budget to buy your own things.  Even if you're struggling.  You can't just keep depending. 
	Thank you.  And I want to say go San Francisco Giants.  I hope we win the world series this year. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Thank you, Janeen.  The last speaker will be Deanna Noriega. 
	>> DEANNA NORIEGA:  Yes, I own three businesses and yes, to get the bank loan to start the business, I had to come up with 20% or I couldn't get the loan and I did it without the BEP because I had things to turn into cash, family heirlooms and things I sold to get that amount.  Someone who wants to own their own business has no business background, this gives them the information they need to do all the different things they need to have a business.  I bought a franchise, so I got all of my training through the franchise, but I couldn't have done it if I hadn't had personal assets to begin it.  Yes, I bought my cash register.  I bought my scale.  I bought a talking scale.  I bought all of this stuff to make it work for me.  But I was lucky enough to be born into a family where I had an uncle and two brothers who were silversmiths that gave me beautiful gifts growing up that I had to sell to achieve this dream of having my own business.  Despite my education, despite my scores on state tests, I couldn't find a job. 
	So I said, okay, no one will hire me, I'll hire me.  And I opened a pizza franchise as my first business.  So yes, people do need a leg up when they don't have any skills and don't have any background. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Thank you, Deanna.  We have heard from our speakers and we are now going to proceed to the vote.  Are all hands lowered?  
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Yes. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  All of those wishing to vote in favor of resolution 2023-11, please raise your hand. 
	>> NANCY:  Okay.  We are settled. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Let's lower all hands, please. 
	>> NANCY:  All hands are lowered.  Okay.  We're good.  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Good. 
	All those wishing to vote in opposition to resolution 2023-11, please raise your hand. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  A bag of popcorn in the microwaves and then when they come down, it's just like a wave. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Yeah, it's funny. 
	>> NANCY:  Okay.  We are settled.  Those in favor of the resolution, 160.  Those opposed or against is 23.  And there were 235 in Zoom during the vote. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Since we had less than 25 opposed, we will not call for a record vote. 
	Therefore, I declare the resolution to be adopted.  Guys, we have one more to do tonight. 
	We are rolling along fine tonight.  Mr.  Resolutions chair. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  All right. 
	We are now to resolution 2023-12.  
	>> Resolution 2023-12. 
	Funding of Visual Interpreting Services, Submitted by the California Council of the Blind and Robert Acosta. 
	Whereas, access to information, in all its forms, is very possibly the largest impediment to the independence of people who are blind or have low vision; and 
Whereas, technological advancements have brought about new visual interpretation services, such as AIRA, that provide professional and confidential services for a fee; and 
Whereas, such visual interpretation services are designed to provide a variety of assistance to customers with vision impairments, including, but not limited to, reading mail and other materials, helping to administer and read the results of at-home medical tests, reading computer screens, and providing environmental information that enables individuals to travel safely; and 
Whereas, the cost of such visual interpreting services is generally unaffordable for low- and middle-income individuals with vision loss; 
	Now, therefore, be it resolved by the American Council of the Blind in convention assembled that this organization encourage its affiliates to advocate for funding of professional visual interpretation services at the state level for people who are blind or who have low vision.  End of Resolution 2023-12.  
	[Reading in Spanish] 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Okay.  The Resolutions Committee recommends it do pass, and I will so move. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Thank you.  Do we have somebody from CCB or Mr.  Acosta here that could answer questions?  
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Mr.  Acosta just raised his hand. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Hang on, Bob, we'll give you a chance to speak as the maker of this resolution when it comes to debate.  Okay. 
	We're up to any questions or clarifications.  So I'm going to start in the QA box this time, if we have anything.  I think our Q&A box person may be muted. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Sorry about that. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  This is the third time, that's your third mistake. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Am I out?  Okay.  So Carla would like to know if we have any statistics regarding our streams in the clubhouse and I think Jane might be able to tell us about the clubhouse and Rick can tell us about the -- 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Let's finish this one up. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Gregg. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Go ahead. 
	>> GREGG WANDSNEIDER:  Is this a state issue?  Why are we encouraging states?  Is this a federal question?  Just a point of clarification. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  State, but it came from California, and we passed this resolution in California and we just think it's something we wanted to put out here.  I hear Bob Acosta. 
	Go ahead, Bob. 
	>> BOB ACOSTA:  Bob Acosta.  Can you hear me?  
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Yes, we can hear you. 
	>> BOB ACOSTA:  This originated in California, and I'd like to publicly thank Jeff Thom for all of his assistance.  We felt it would be easier if rather than saying -- it's nice to do a federal one, but with the debt and all that stuff, we considered let's ask affiliates and let's encourage them and support them if they seek such help.  There are some affiliates that have done it, some people. 
	Alabama, Connecticut.  And some have gotten it done in different ways.  I hope later I can tell you what I think of AIRA.  I think it's just a fabulous -- remember, we said "such as AIRA," because you might find a better one in your state. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Thank you, Bob, and we will give you the chance, as the maker, the opportunity to speak in favor as we start debating. 
	>> BOB ACOSTA:  Thank you. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Next question. 
	Anything from the Q&A?  
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Sure, what is meant by visual interpretation?  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Back to you, Bob. 
	>> BOB ACOSTA:  I will try, and then, Jeff, if you'll help me out, visual interpretation -- we thank God for ADP, which has led the way for us. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  What is ADP?  Oh, that ADP. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Audio Description Project. 
	>> BOB ACOSTA:  This is captioned.  The Deaf beat us on this one, I'm proud, the most militant group besides us, blind people, are Deaf people.  They work very well.  And they got it and I think we've got to catch up.  And AIRA, groups like that, are absolutely fabulous.  You don't want me to tell you about losing my false teeth and they found it.  Thank you. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  I can jump in and answer this too if you'd like. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Sure, Gabe. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Audio description is giving a description, whether it's reading a document, reading a street sign, finding something that you dropped and can't find anywhere.  Just getting that visual assistance. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  I happen to be an AIRA user, and I couldn't have gotten ready for my move without that.  Just a point. 
	Questions, Travis?  [Overlapping speakers] 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  You took over there last, didn't you?  [Overlapping speakers] 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  I'm sorry. 
	I'm sorry.  [Overlapping speakers].  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  All right. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Come save us. 
	>> JEANETTE KUTASH:  Are we hoping to fight for this both for working people and non-working people?  I'm here to tell all of you, I would not have made it in my last job without AIRA.  So somehow, I just hope that we're fighting for both. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  I'd like that -- 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  It would depend on your state, but hopefully it would pass.  Of course, it would be on the [indiscernible], the hope would be you would get it for all people who are blind or low vision or in need of it for whichever reason they would qualify for it. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Yep.  Denise, how are we doing?  
	>> DENISE IRMINGER:  One second. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  I think we're going to stop.  We're going to stop here.  Okay.  So we're going to lower all hands.  We're going to now move to debate on this.  As soon as I know that all hands are down -- 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  They're down. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  So we cannot take a point of clarification either, because that part of the section -- okay.  I've got lots of people here that are going to hurt me if I -- 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  And I think, you know, that's one of the reasons why we're having the maker speak on these things. 
	That does tend to clear some things up.  Moving to debate, is there anyone who would wish to speak against this resolution?  Okay.  One of the things we also said tonight is we're getting -- we're getting some hands up.  I did see Janeen up.  With all due respect, you've spoken on a couple of them and we did say we were going to try to not call on the same people all the time. 
	So I'm going to ask you to -- I'm going to ask you to yield on this one.  So Travis, do we have any hands?  
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Yes, we do. 
	Veronica. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Veronica, are you wishing to speak against this?  
	>> VERONICA ELSEA:  Speaking against. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Gotcha.  Any others speaking against?  
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Yes, we have one, Paul Edwards. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Paul Edwards. 
	Paul, were you wishing to speak against this?  
	>> PAUL EDWARDS:  Sorry, I couldn't find the spot.  Yes, I would like to speak against the resolution. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Travis, do we have any more?  
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  317, ending in -- 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Pat, speaking against?  
	>> PAT:  Speaking against. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Casey, speaking against?  
	>> CASEY DUTMER:  Yes, speaking against. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Four against, so now what we need to do, first four, we can take four more, if there are four people who would like to speak for the resolution.  So Bob Acosta is one of them.  We'll take him. 
	We can take four more. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  I'm looking for new hands.  There's Janae Miller. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Janae.  Okay. 
	Janae.  I remember her from leadership conference.  Janae, are you wanting to speak for this?  Get you unmuted there.  Just let us know. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Didn't take the first.  Sorry about that. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Janae, you should be able to unmute.  We've got you. 
	>> JANAE MILLER:  Yes. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  You have to speak for. 
	>> JANAE MILLER:  Hi, Ray. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Any others?  
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  New Hampshire is one, Joe Sorenson.  Do you want to speak for?  
	>> JOE SORENSON:  I'll have my wife speak for.  It's easier with the microphone. 
	>> ELLEN SORENSON:  Yeah, it's me.  Ellen. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Ellen Sorenson.  We have you down.  We now have two against plus Bob, so three total.  Two for, plus Bob.  So we can take two more for. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Okay. 
	Sharon. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  You can just unmute if you're telling us you want to talk for. 
	>> SHARON STRZALKOWSKI:  It took a while for me to get your -- yes, I'd like to speak for, please. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  We'll take one more. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Chris Gray. 
	Are you speaking for, sir?  Sounds like our -- 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  He does have permission. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Chris, are you speaking for?  
	>> CHRIS GRAY:  Yes, I'm speaking for the resolution. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Excellent. 
	Now we have our speakers.  So we're going to go and Denise, Denise, I hope you have these written down, because I will need your help with this. 
	>> DENISE IRMINGER:  I have them. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  I can't remember all these.  The first person I'm going to permit to speak, remember, we have up to 20 minutes is Bob Acosta, the maker of the resolution. 
	>> BOB ACOSTA:  Ladies and gentlemen, dear friends of ACB, I sincerely hope that you vote for this resolution.  Yes, AIRA has been mentioned a lot.  If there are other groups founded in states that do this, great. 
	But AIRA is the one that's in trouble, and if they raise their prices as they're going to do, it's going to eliminate a lot of us.  I don't see that legislation will be passed easily in the states.  We're asking affiliates in this resolution to look into it in their states and the ACB will encourage them every way we can as they do with us now.  So ladies and gentlemen, you've heard me.  I don't know what else I can say.  But the greatest things that I've had in my life are Braille, the iPhone, and AIRA.  Thank you. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Thank you.  So our first person speaking against is 
	>> DENISE COLLEY:  Veronica. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Go ahead, Veronica. 
	>> VERONICA ELSEA:  I know all of this costs money, I've had to buy it for myself and I'm sorry, I can't remember the exact name of it, but there is proposed resolution that's supposed to allow us to cover any technology or things that we use on our taxes, and I would like to see us piggyback on that one because if we start creating a state bureaucracy, okay, you're blind, you buy this, somebody is going to want forms and why do you need it and then it's going to slow down the vendors' way of collecting money and I think it's going to make unnecessary bureaucracy when it could be piggybacked on to the federal pending legislation that I know both ACB and NFB have talked about supporting.  So I think it's smarter to do it that way. 
	Thank you. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  I think what you're referring to is the assistive technology tax credit is what you're referring to. 
	>> VERONICA ELSEA:  Yeah. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Thank you. 
	Next person for. 
	>> Janae Miller. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Go ahead. 
	>> JANAE MILLER:  I heard what Veronica said and what Bob said, for some of us to claim it on taxes, you have to pay for it first.  For a person who is blind, lives alone and has to rely on services because I live alone and everyone I love it at work most of the day, I would love to use AIRA, because my eyes aren't as patient and they're professional, they're taking the time, they're not rushing you off, and you need something to be found, to be read.  So find steady employment, I need to be able to get my mail read and have to wait for a friend to come over, having some help with that would be very helpful in Ohio.  I'm for it. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Thank you, Janae.  Next person against. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Mr.  Edwards. 
	>> PAUL EDWARDS:  Thank you very much.  I really want to make three points.  There are some free options that will do some of the things that AIRA will do. 
	Second, I have some concerns about putting folks who are blind in a situation in a state where we make available services which the state pays for or someone in the state pays for because I think it creates a situation where there is every likelihood that other services which might be more appropriate in terms of providing training don't end up getting provided because the entity that's providing services indicates, well, we've given you the ability to get access to this information, so we don't need to provide you with all of the training you need to access various technological components.  And the third point I want to make is, well, while it is possible that other entities that are actually charging for this service are out there, the only one that's currently there is AIRA, and ACB has in the past avoided passing resolutions which, whether we mean to or not, appear to give advantage to a particular company and I don't think it's appropriate for us to start now. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  All right.  Next person for, that would be -- 
	>> Ellen. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Ellen Sorenson, go ahead. 
	>> ELLEN SORENSON:  I currently am not a user.  However, it would be wonderful if we would -- we could do it.  We can't afford it right now. 
	However, it's nice that it's available when we do have the money to, you know, get a subscription for it.  This way we can [indiscernible] help and what have you.  So that's basically all I wanted to say. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  All right. 
	Thank you, Ellen.  The next person speaking against. 
	>> Pat. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Pat, go ahead. 
	>> PAT:  I could not be more opposed to this resolution.  I do literacy and all over the country, mainstreaming that's not covered.  Lack of textbooks, crowded classrooms, teachers who cannot do IEPs because the funding isn't there.  There are states where people wait one and two years for rehabilitation services.  Yes, there are states with a lot of programs and it may not be possible for some states to realize that other states provide basic services for individuals who need to learn the skills to become blind and the total lack of services for older Americans losing eyesight.  I think it's a great idea if we could afford it. 
	Many states are paying for collapsing inner cities where cities are asking to be bailed out by states.  We are hitting the budget crisis in one after another.  It's not that the services aren't useful, but we have to prioritize and meet the basic needs of people who need orientation and mobility provided by skilled people in Braille and I would ask how many blind people are there?  How can states afford to provide this for the blind people in a given state?  I don't have the number, but I'm just throwing out a number.  I couldn't be more opposed.  It's a wonderful idea.  But prioritization, people deserve to get the skills that they need, particularly the children who are being shortchanged in schooling.  Thank you. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  All right. 
	Thank you, Pat.  Next person for. 
	>> Sharon. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Sharon, go ahead. 
	>> SHARON STRZALKOWSKI:  Okay. 
	AIRA, I think, is really an essential service for a lot of people in all stages of life. 
	And to say, yeah, we -- we need NLN [phonetic], we need rehabilitation HAN [phonetic], teaching and all of that, but there are just times when we need assistance.  And I don't think that money has -- can come just from state agencies.  But perhaps businesses in a state, universities, I think we need to broaden our thinking about it. 
	I believe that AIRA has contracted or -- someone has just started there to be an engagement person to try to bring more funding because it's very obvious that a lot of people just can't afford it, and I think we have to do whatever we can to encourage the state to help it to happen, as it has in some of the states.  Thank you. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Thank you. 
	All right.  Last person speaking against, Casey.  Casey, go ahead, sir. 
	>> CASEY DUTMER:  Thank you.  I oppose this resolution, not because it's a bad resolution, but because of -- I think it confuses the role of ACB and affiliates.  When we say in a resolution of ACB to do something that we've been told numerous times is a state issue. 
	So my issue is, when does ACB draw the line what it will do and won't do for affiliates and I think supporting this resolution confuses the issue of where affiliates and ACB really stand with one another. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Denise, how are we doing on time, our 20 minutes?  
	>> DENISE IRMINGER:  You have 10 minutes and 14 seconds left. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  We're doing fine.  We have one more speaker and that would be -- 
	>> Chris Gray. 
	>> CHRIS GRAY:  Thank you very much.  I'd like us to take on the point tangentially, but a separate point from Pat and Paul Edwards, and that would be we would be taking funding away from rehabilitation.  And that it wouldn't be right for ACB to weigh in on this in favor of one service or more services.  The fact of the matter is, there is one service and one service only that provides newspapers for the blind around this country. 
	That's NFB news line.  We all know “Newsline.”  We love it.  We use it.  And they get a ton of state funding.  They get federal funding?  I'm not sure about that.  But anyway, they get a lot of state funding and that was partly because of work done all over this country by ACB.  So make no mistake about that. 
	The next point is about rehabilitation.  And I'll just tell a personal story.  Well, almost personal.  It has to do with my wife, actually, not me. 
	When we came back to California, Marveletta wanted to get back into the interpreting business here in California, not in Missouri.  She went to rehab, voc rehab.  They did nothing for her.  She went to AIRA.  AIRA had their beautiful program a half hour free job hunting, worked with her every day.  She now works for five interpreting agencies, and she's making darn good money doing it.  So don't think that AIRA doesn't do a huge service for blind and visually impaired people that our rehabilitation system doesn't even do.  They couldn't help her do a thing. 
	Now, Be My Eyes is great. 
	I love them.  I use them.  But they're not professionals. 
	They're not good on the web. 
	They're just a service that you use to find something on the floor or read a bottle or something like that.  They're great.  They're great.  But this is a great resolution. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  You're at time, Chris.  Okay.  We have -- that's all of our speakers that we had lined up. 
	So we will close debate and we'll now proceed to the vote. 
	Okay.  All hands lowered. 
	>> NANCY:  All hands are lowered. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  All of those wishing to vote in favor of resolution 2023-12, please raise your hands. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  As a point of order, Ray. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Yeah, we can take that. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Amanda asks, if you should have asked to -- if there was a motion to extend debate. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  No, we had not reached 20 minutes, so I did not have to do that. 
	>> NANCY:  Okay.  We have settled. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Lower all hands, please. 
	>> NANCY:  Okay.  It looks like all hands have been lowered. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  All of those wishing to vote in opposition to resolution 2023-12, please raise your hand. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  When you complete this, Ray, I do have some other probably relevant questions for you.  Like point of -- point of something.  I'm not sure what's what sometimes, and a technical question about next steps. 
	>> NANCY:  Okay.  We have settled.  We have settled. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Can we have the counts, please. 
	>> NANCY:  You sure may.  Those in favor of the resolution, 111. 
	Those against the resolution, 74.  There are 230 individuals in Zoom during the vote. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  All right.  So in favor, 111, opposed was 74. 
	>> NANCY:  Correct. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Let's lower all hands, please. 
	>> NANCY:  All hands are lowered. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Of those who voted on the opposing side, the losing side, are there at least 25 who would like us to take a record vote on this resolution?  
	>> NANCY:  Okay. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  How many do we have, Nancy?  
	>> NANCY:  We have 49. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  We will have a record vote, then, on July 5th, resolution 2023-12. 
	So we are done with resolutions for the evening.  And before -- before I turn it back to Deb, I actually have a question for the Resolutions Committee, and that question would be, since we normally have three thank you resolutions -- 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  We had a plan for that.  Don't worry about it.  Settle down.  You're right, we can't write them yet. 
	Yeah, yeah, we -- 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Small but important thing, so we wanted to make sure 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  It's a very good point. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  We have it covered, though.  We're good. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Since we're done -- 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  You're not done.  We have some points that need to be made. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  I have two people, Donna and actually -- yeah, a bunch of people.  I want to deal with these, though.  So they're saying that you needed -- that they believed you needed to ask if there were more speakers who wanted to speak since you had not used the 20 minutes. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Per the standing rules, as I said, we will take up to five for and five against.  That is in the standing rules.  That is what we did.  So we are following the standing rules.  If you do not like that standing rule, change it next year. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Okay. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  That's my interpretation of that. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  We have several people who have weighed in on that.  Okay. 
	And then we have the other major question which has a number of variations of, but I think we can do, is first of all, which -- can we be reminded at the end of each day which vote -- which resolutions have ended up in the record vote so -- 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Sure. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  We had the one from last night and one from tonight. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  I'd be happy to.  Resolution 2023-06 was -- is going to a record vote on July 5th.  That came from last night's activity. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  That is the one on the -- 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Code of conduct. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Code of conduct. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Code of conduct, and tonight, 2023-12 on the visual interpreting services, and while I'm talking, I'll let you know what resolutions we will be dealing with some evening. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  The resolution on the -- 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  We have four more resolutions to deal with, substantive resolutions, 2023-13, which deals with -- 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Sorry, I don't have my document here.  I don't have them memorized. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  The number and title of those we'll talk about tomorrow evening and vote on. 
	>> NANCY:  Are you good or do you want me to read them?  
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  If you have them, go for them. 
	>> NANCY:  Tell me if I'm wrong, resolution 2023-13, ride-sharing and communication.  2023-14, ride-share, denial of service to guide dog users.  2023-15, air travel attestation forms. 
	Resolution 2023-16, ACB, REP, and OT certification.  That is it.  [Overlapping speakers].  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Thanks, Nancy, for doing that.  Also, I would -- 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  You're not done, Ray, we have more questions over there. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  They'll have to wait just a second. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  You sounded like you were wrapping up.  I didn't want to wrap up. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  I'm not.  I want to encourage everyone to please read those resolutions and be prepared to come and discuss them tomorrow night and we will look forward to that.  [Overlapping speakers].  
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Just to reach out on that topic real quick, remember, they'll be on the Listserv tomorrow morning as well as they are available on the ACB media, I think it was 10 for English and 9 for Spanish as well as the podcast.  [Overlapping speakers].  
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  I paid attention last night. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  You did. 
	You did good.  And I want to remind everyone, the rough, the unedited recordings, Monday night's Standing Rules Committee and Tuesday night's resolutions and tonight will be up, are made available relatively immediately the following morning on the ACB podcast.  So if you want to hear it again, or if you missed it, you can go get it from the podcast. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Yes, yes, all right. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  So the really pressing question that we have, we just have a lot of people asking, it's important, is what happens basically with these record vote resolutions?  The real question is, will there be debate again?  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Now, I'm unmuted again.  No, there will not be because we have -- since we have -- we have debated them and we've taken a voice vote.  That voice vote was -- the opposition -- there were people in opposition to the outcome of the voice vote who asked for a record vote.  Just as we would in an in-person convention, if we have people who want a roll call in person on a voice vote that they believe didn't go the way it was called, we don't go back to debating.  We actually will now move to the record vote, and that will be, again, on July 5th. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Mm-hmm. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  The other part of that question, people are still rolling stuff in here. 
	The other part of that question is to talk about the affiliate vote process.  So the record vote is -- is basically a vote and an affiliate. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Yes.  We have explained this several times. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Several times. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  We will explain it again.  There are two parts to a record vote and I encourage people to go and read the constitution and bylaws, article 3, section C talks all about this.  When we start doing record votes at the convention, we will have -- you will have your individual vote, which you've got your voting code for. 
	You should have received that. 
	And we had the mock election yesterday so folks could practice doing that.  And the links are going to be changed so that they're embedded with the code so that you just have to hit the link and cast your vote. 
	And the roll call of affiliates. 
	So there's -- there's -- there's a couple of things you need to do.  You need to cast your individual vote when we take a record vote on an election, a constitution and bylaws amendments, order, resolutions. 
	The two that -- so far, the two that have gone to record vote. 
	And then you will need to also tell the delegate and alternate in your affiliate and your affiliate will tell you who those people are or should have told you if they haven't asked them and they will also tell you how to get that vote to them so they can cast the affiliate votes appropriately.  Yes. 
	>> DENISE COLLEY:  I'm not talking about the elections right now.  I'm simply talking about the resolutions in the constitution, there's no amendment.  So on Wednesday, the 5th, you will have that four-hour period to cast your individual votes and to inform your delegate and their alternate how you would like your affiliate to vote. 
	On Thursday, the 6th, then, will be the actual roll call of affiliates.  That's when you will need to, as delegates, tell me how your state wants to vote.  And please remember that on that day you will receive a ballot that lists both of these resolutions, a third one, if we have one tomorrow, and the two constitutional amendments because those have to have a roll call vote.  So all of those things will be on one ballot. 
	You will vote Thursday -- Wednesday on that ballot, that ballot, and then the delegate must give me your roll call vote for your affiliate, and you have to give them all to me at one time.  So we don't just take one and go through all the states and then the next and go through all the states and the third and go through all the states.  When it's your turn to give your delegate vote, you must give me the vote for each of the items on that ballot. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Yes.  And so that's what you will do.  So that's what you will do on July 5th and 6th.  And for those in person at the convention, you can vote -- well, for those who are not there, or are attending virtually, you can vote either by email, on your email with that code or you can do it on the telephone, and the instructions are there how to do that and vote by telephone which IVR, which is pressing one for this and two for that or do it with operator assistance or -- and if you're at the convention in person, in addition to those two methods, there will be a precinct set up where people will be available to help you if you have any issues voting. 
	We're going to take maybe just a couple of more if we have any and then it's -- well, we're going to wrap it up. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Just a moment.  So I'm just looking down through these because there are lots of repeats and I think a lot you have answered.  Just to clarify, will these be re-read on the floor, and the answer to that is no, right?  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  No, they will not.  Again, they are available. 
	They have not been amended.  If you would like to read them, you can avail yourself of that opportunity. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Talk of having the results on the -- 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  I believe those are -- 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  They'll be on the ballot.  You'll be able to see that.  Okay?  
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Yes.  Also, does the original vote from today count in the record vote?  The answer is no, right?  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  No, we've done this before. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  This is not new.  What's new -- or newer, we've done this the last couple years, is this process of doing them.  We've had record vote forever and it's always been separate from the -- 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Yeah.  This vote, basically, is thrown away. 
	It's basically, because due to the fact that the opposition, that the losing side said we would like to have a record vote, this voice vote does not even count.  Pretend like it never happened. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  Right. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Okay.  Matt would actually like the floor for his point of order. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  You're not letting me out of here, guys. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  No. 
	>> MATT SELM:  Matt Selm, a point of order on the closure of debate.  I promise I'll make it quick.  In the standing rules it says that it's 20 minutes allotted to alternate debate. 
	We did get through speakers, but we still had time remaining on debate so I think it would have been appropriate for the chair to call for additional -- 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  We've been saying up to 20 minutes.  And we have -- but we also said that we're going to take up to five for and five against.  And that's what we did.  So I am -- I am going to with that ruling. 
	>> MATT SELM:  I respectfully disagree, but I understand your point. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  And maybe we -- maybe we can clarify that in the standing rules for next year, but that was my understanding.  We took up to the -- the five for and five against and the maker did take less than 20 minutes, so -- and the other thing, guys, people were kind of saying the same things, too.  So, you know, there comes a point that debate just gets repetitive also.  I think that was a reasonable compromise to do that.  I certainly am willing to be overruled, but -- okay. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Someone is asking, what is the purpose of the full vote and the half vote?  I think this is related to the affiliate vote question. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  All that is, so when you are allocating your affiliate votes, you have a certain number of -- you can't go lower than half votes.  For example, you can't say, I want to do two and a quarter votes for candidate A, a quarter vote for candidate B and 2 1/2 for C. 
	You have to get it down to at least half votes. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  And these are the affiliates, so -- [Overlapping speakers.] 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  The affiliate, you get one -- you get one vote. 
	And no, we're not like Chicago where you vote more than once. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Patti asks, will they get a copy of the amended votes?  Amended resolutions.  Sorry.  I can't read anymore.  And the answer to that is, yes.  We actually publish all of the resolutions in their final form after the convention. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Mm-hmm. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  And it will be publicly available.  You can go to the web and see a year's worth.  So these will be added to that. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Yes, absolutely. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  And we'll notify you when it happens. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  I was reminded that there was a request for counts on media 1 and clubhouse, and I don't have the media counts.  Rick will provide those at some points. 
	>> RICK MORIN:  I have them now. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  You have them now.  Give us those and I'll give you the clubhouse. 
	>> RICK MORIN:  Hi, everybody, Media 1, which is where we've had the main broadcast, the English broadcast, right now, we have 103 people that are still tuned in.  We had as many as 256 over the last 24 hours, which would include part of last night, so 256.  Right now, we have about 6 people listening to media 8, which is our Spanish broadcast.  And we had as many as 33 listening. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  All right. 
	And we have had -- this evening, averaging 10 in Clubhouse with up to 16 with -- in the earlier sessions.  And it should be noted that generally in Clubhouse, related to conventions, those are people who are visiting us.  Our members tend to be in Zoom or tend to be in the ACB Media, but our Clubhouse is kind of our open forum place so we tend to have a lot of visitors there. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  All right.  I think -- 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Okay. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  I think barring any -- 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  There are a couple of people who might have their hands up for a point of order, they've cued into questions that you can decide, Ray, how you're going to do that. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Let's take maybe two, two hands and then we're going to wrap it up. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  All right. 
	Carla. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Carla. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Carla Ruschival. 
	>> CARLA RUSCHIVAL:  Mr.  Chair. 
	I would like to move to amend the standing rule to allow for these resolutions to be read on the floor and to allow up to ten minutes for summaries of the for and against presentations. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  That is a legitimate motion. 
	>> CARLA RUSCHIVAL:  Yes, it is. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Is there anybody who would be moved to second that motion?  Travis, we have some hands up, so let's take one of them.  Is there -- 
	>> DENISE COLLEY:  Mr.  Chair, I couldn't get unmuted.  Carla, could you please repeat your motion?  
	>> CARLA RUSCHIVAL:  Yes, I am moving to amend the standing rule to permit the reading of these resolutions when they come up for a vote on the floor of the convention two weeks from now and to allow up to ten minutes of time with each of the resolutions to, as a reminder to us about the debate, the substance of the debate. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  So what you're asking for is basically that we read any resolutions that are going to go to -- 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  The record vote. 
	>> CARLA RUSCHIVAL:  So far, Mr.  Chair -- [Overlapping speakers.] 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  I got that.  I got that. 
	>> CARLA RUSCHIVAL:  I want to be sure. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  I appreciate that. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Will you take a second from the Q&A box?  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Yeah, I can do that. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  It's Amanda. 
	Amanda will second. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  All right. 
	We're going to have some more business, guys. 
	>> DENISE COLLEY:  We're talking resolutions, not constitution. 
	Resolutions. 
	>> CARLA RUSCHIVAL:  Yes, ma'am, resolutions.  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  All right, guys, do you want me to -- do you want me to go ahead and take this, Deb?  
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Yeah, go ahead. 
	>> CARLA RUSCHIVAL:  Wait. 
	Wait.  Hold on.  Let me ask, so was that Denise that asked me?  
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Yes. 
	>> CARLA RUSCHIVAL:  Okay.  So the resolutions, we debate -- we debate on Friday.  Correct?  
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  The bylaws -- constitution bylaws we debate on Friday. 
	>> CARLA RUSCHIVAL:  Okay. 
	Would we go two weeks without discussing them and vote then?  
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  They are voted on the 5th. 
	>> CARLA RUSCHIVAL:  And we would not re-read them or anything?  
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  The second reading is Friday. 
	>> CARLA RUSCHIVAL:  Then I'm rolling it right on in there. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  The second reading is Friday. 
	>> CARLA RUSCHIVAL:  And I'd like to discuss that when we have a second. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  There is a second. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Amanda seconds the amendment. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Any resolutions going to record vote and a reading of the constitution and bylaws amendments before they go to record vote with -- do you want the summary of them as well?  Is that what you're -- 
	>> CARLA RUSCHIVAL:  I will speak to it.  So -- is there going to be discussion on the amendment on -- a summary. 
	They've already discussed. 
	But -- 
	>> DENISE COLLEY:  Summary of the amendments.  Thank you. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  And I believe just so I'm clear, you said ten minutes for each item?  Is that what you -- 
	>> CARLA RUSCHIVAL:  Up to. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Up to. 
	>> CARLA RUSCHIVAL:  We're not asking for another debate. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Good. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  All right.  So Amanda, do you accept that?  
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  She did. 
	She already has. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  It's been moved and seconded.  I'm going to -- so the rules that we had with clarifications and questions, that only applied to resolutions per the standing rules, so we're going to move, then, into a more additional debate now and so I'm going to -- I'm pausing because I'm waiting for somebody to tell me I'm wrong -- it actually is -- okay.  That's right.  So we are now into our first five minutes if there are any questions or clarifications that are needed and Carla is there so she can -- 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Should I lower all hands?  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Yeah, let's do that. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Janeen has a point of order. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  You guys are right on top of it tonight. 
	What's Janeen's point of order?  
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  She will have to tell you.  She's asking. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Janeen, go ahead with your point. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Let me find her. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Janeen, you have to raise your hand.  He may have lowered it.  We need you to raise it now. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  There she is. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Janeen, what is your point?  
	>> JANEEN LEA:  Here's the thing.  Please, point of order, when you are reading resolutions or responding to people, as our leaders, can you please explain your acronyms?  It's really important for those who don't know or who are new. 
	That's all I wanted to clarify and say, I spoke twice tonight, Ray.  Last night I spoke more. 
	It's really important for those who don't know.  Thank you.  [Overlapping speakers].  
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  In the resolutions, we really do try to state what it is prior to giving the acronym, when we talk about BEP, we say Business Enterprise Program, and if you look at it, it says, parentheses, BEP, or Older Americans Act, parentheses, OAA, so we try to spell it out and put those letters in parentheses afterwards. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:   [Indiscernible] has some parliamentary inquiry. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  I'm going to take that.  That takes precedence.  Go ahead, John McCann. 
	>> JOHN McCANN:  Thank you very much.  I rise to a parliamentary question, going to the issue of the vote total.  When the vote percentage that is required to pass this.  I'm not the parliamentarian, the chairman here is, but I would cite and -- I don't have the latest edition, but page 601 of the 11th edition of Robert's Rules which essentially states, when you take out or separately consider any particular rule, the standing rules, the vote required for passage depends on the nature of the rule.  Given that this would impact the right of debate, which is generally only amendable by a two-thirds, I would ask for clarification and would cite 601, 11th edition. 
	>> DENISE IRMINGER:  You have your standing rules.  When you amend something that has been previously adopted, it takes a two-thirds vote to amend. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Thank you.  So that means that if -- what that means, folks, is if we -- as we discuss this, assuming that -- once we debate and discuss this, that it would take -- we would have to get the percentage of the voice vote, and if it doesn't pass on that, we would -- what are we going to do, move to -- [Overlapping speakers.] 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  On this, you really can't. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  No, you can't. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Are we going to be talking out of here by midnight?  
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  No, midnight mine and Mitch's time. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Mitch is a 626 number, Travis. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Ending in 388. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  There you go. 
	You're unmuted. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Go ahead, Mitch, you're unmuted. 
	>> MITCH:  Can you hear me?  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  We've got you. 
	>> MITCH:  I actually didn't want to make a point of order here.  I wanted to speak in favor of the proposed amendment to the standing rules. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  You can't do that yet. 
	>> MITCH:  I understand that.  I raised my hand initially to make a point of order but Carla beat me to it. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay. 
	>> MITCH:  I will wish to speak in favor of the proposed amendment whenever that time comes. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Do we have any other questions, questions or clarifications that anybody needs on what we're proposing as the amendment here?  
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  They keep coming fast and furious over here.  I don't know if they're people that Travis has as well. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  I have 11 hands. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  That's the thing. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  I'll take one that hasn't gone yet.  Linda, I'll allow you to talk. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Linda, yes. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Linda, you may unmute. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  You may unmute, Linda. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Thank you. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  We hear you. 
	>> LINDA:  My question is just a little question.  Who is going to prepare the summaries of the debate for the questions that are going to be presented and reviewed?  
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  You are, Linda.  [Laughter].  
	>> LINDA:  The Resolutions Committee -- anyway, I'm definitely -- I want to make sure that the -- an impartial person does that. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Well -- 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  It would have to be the resolution's chair or designee, I think. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Again, all that's being asked for here, and Carla can speak to this too, is for each resolution and amendment that's going for a record vote that we would read it and give up to a ten-minute summary of the -- of each of them.  So people can hear what they're all about.  Okay?  Any other questions?  Travis, I'm going to go ahead and take one more. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  We'll go with Janelle, trying to take people who haven't spoken yet. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Janelle. 
	>> JANELLE EDWARDS:  Hello.  My question is, and I'm sorry that my phone is -- my question is, whether it be the original resolution or as amended.  Thank you. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Whatever we voted on.  None of the -- there have been some friendly amendments made to the resolutions, so basically that's what we voted on.  So what we would be reading is what we -- is exactly what we voted on tonight. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  So far, I don't believe that any -- either of the two resolutions that are going to a record vote -- [indiscernible] 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  They have not. 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  I don't think that either of them have a friendly amendment. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  If a resolution does have an friendly amendment or any amendment, it would be the amended version of the resolution, whatever is going to the record vote. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Whatever we're voting on -- 
	>> GABE GRIFFITH:  That had any of them, the two OIB -- type -- 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  All right. 
	Lower all hands, please.  Okay. 
	So Carla, Carla is on deck to speak for her amendment.  But before we do that, let's get all hands down, please. 
	>> DENISE IRMINGER:  And Ray, please tell me when you want me to start the timer after you get everybody selected, please. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  I sure will.  Got all hands lowered. 
	All righty.  Travis, do we have all hands lowered?  
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Yes, almost said yes and one popped up, but it's down. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  All right. 
	All those wishing to speak against the amendment being proposed by Carla Ruschival, please raise your hands. 
	Okay.  Let's start taking them from the top. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Jeannette.  
	>> JEANETTE KUTASH:  I am speaking against. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Peter Heide. 
	>> PETER HEIDE:  Speaking against. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Next one, Joe Sorenson.  [Overlapping speakers].  
	>> JOE SORENSON:  I will be speaking against. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  That's three. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Brian Charlson.  Are you going to speak against, sir?  I had to hit that twice. 
	>> BRIAN CHARLSON:  I want to speak against. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  That's four.  Any more?  
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Paul Edwards. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Paul Edwards. 
	>> PAUL EDWARDS:  Mr.  Chair, I think overall, I'm speaking against, but I also really have what I'm not sure is a point of order, I think it probably is. 
	May I at least put it on the table?  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Yes, go ahead. 
	>> PAUL EDWARDS:  Our standing rules were adopted by our opening business meeting and in that opening business meeting there was a fairly large number of individuals who recognized that they were the folks to be involved in adopting the standing rule.  It seems to me that the only appropriate way to deal with modifying the standing rule is to modify it in the same circumstances.  If we follow the rules that we're currently operating with, we would debate it tonight, we would pass or not pass the amendment to the standing rule and then the standing rule amendment to potentially, I guess, become a record vote.  But according to our standing rules, there would be no debate once we go on the to the point where we were dealing with it.  So it seems to me that the fairest and most appropriate thing for us to do is to not discuss the standing rule here tonight but to indicate that amendment has been requested and put it on the agenda for our first full meeting of the group. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  In the in-person meeting?  Is that what you're thinking?  
	>> PAUL EDWARDS:  Yes. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  A little help from the parliamentarian here. 
	It is a valid motion to amend the standing rules and this is part of our business meeting. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  This is our valid business meeting. 
	>> PAUL EDWARDS:  The issue, Deb, I don't think any of our members had any notion this was to happen at a meeting just discussing resolutions, and it seems to me we're making a change to the way we govern our convention without giving anybody an opportunity to debate. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  I think we would need to do that on Friday when we do the constitution and bylaw amendments. 
	>> PAUL EDWARDS:  I think we could do that if we gave people ample notice I would be -- 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  I'm uncomfortable moving it into the other week because that other week is pretty set. 
	>> PAUL EDWARDS:  I think people need notice. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  And the problem that I want to mention, the reason we are doing this this way is because -- and in our experiments with hybrid business meetings last year, we found that it was really, really challenging to give everybody close to an equal opportunity to participate. 
	>> PAUL EDWARDS:  I can identify with that. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  So I would be very concerned about moving that into that meeting.  But if the body wanted to raise moving it into Friday night, we could -- that would, you know -- 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Since it deals with the matters that I -- I, as chair, will -- so I think what we have to do here, because it's been raised, is -- can I rule that we move it to Friday night?  Can I do that?  
	>> PAUL EDWARDS:  Mr.  Chair, I would move that we table this resolution -- this amendment until a time certain Friday. 
	>> DENISE IRMINGER:  Move the motion has been postponed to that day. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  It's been moved to postpone discussion of this amendment until Friday, June 23rd, in conjunction with our constitution and bylaws meeting.  Is there a second to that?  
	>> BRIAN CHARLSON:  Brian, second, I'll second to postpone. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  That is not debatable?  
	>> DENISE IRMINGER:  Correct. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  There was a question.  What about the resolutions we're voting on?  We would have to -- the proposed amendment to the standing rules doesn't have any impact on what we're doing right now. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  No. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  And my recommendation that Paul took to postpone to Friday is because we have a full slate of resolutions tomorrow.  Our slate is a little smaller on Friday with two bylaws amendments but that also would give us time to notify people. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  And we could get it on the schedule and stuff. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Right. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  All right. 
	You are voting on the motion to postpone.  If you vote in favor, this will be postponed to -- 
	>> [Indiscernible] postponing!  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  So all those in favor -- all hands lowered. 
	>> NANCY:  All hands are not lowered yet. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Patti has a point of order. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Go ahead. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  I'm being deluged here.  There's a lot going on. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Patti?  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Is that Patti Cox?  
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Carla, does the original motion-maker have to accept?  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  No.  No, because this is a motion -- 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Have to accept the friendly amendment?  
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  She already did, and the second -- has to accept it. 
	>> TRAVIS BUTLER:  Patti has been given permission. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Patti, go ahead.  What's your point?  
	>> PATTI COX:  My point of order is this is a business meeting and I understand Paul's point about Monday having more people, but if they wanted to be on the call, they should have been on the call. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  If you feel that way, what you can do is you can vote against the motion to postpone.  And the motion to postpone is not debatable, so I'm not going to take any more debate on that motion.  So -- okay.  Let's lower all hands.  Okay. 
	>> NANCY:  Okay.  All hands are lowered. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  All of those who would like -- all of those who are voting in favor of the motion to postpone debate on this amendment to Friday evening, June 23rd, please raise your hands. 
	>> NANCY:  Give me one more minute here.  We have settled. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Let's lower all hands, please. 
	>> NANCY:  All hands are lowered. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  All of those wishing to vote against the motion to postpone debate, again, you're voting against the motion to postpone debate, please raise your hands. 
	>> NANCY:  Okay.  We have settled. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  I'm unmuted.  There we go.  I am unmuted. 
	>> NANCY:  Those who are for this amendment is 111.  And those against are 22.  There are 182 people in Zoom during the vote. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Okay.  Being that the vote was in favor of postponing debate until Friday evening and that there were not enough that would have a record vote, I'm not sure we would do it, but there were not enough, the chair rules that the motion to postpone is adopted so we will debate this amendment on Friday evening. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  So we will need the exact text.  I don't know whether Denise has it or Carla will get it to me, but we will need the exact text of the amendment, making sure I get the right stuff here, of the amendment so we can make sure it is circulated. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  An amendment to standing rules, takes two-thirds vote to adopt it. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  And we will have the discussion of that on Friday. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Yes, we will. 
	Can I finally give this back to you, Deb?  
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  Yeah, you can.  I'm going to -- the reason that I didn't -- I could have absolutely been chair for this portion because we weren't debating resolutions anymore, the reason I kept it is because the Q&A has been really, really busy, as you know, and we've got -- loads of action over here.  Somebody needed to watch that. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  The real reason she did it, she knows I like torture.  No, seriously, folks, this is what democracy is all about, and we are a democratic organization and that's how we roll. 
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  I believe that we have finally concluded the business.  We did have one additional question, which is, will we conduct the debate on Friday similarly to the way we did tonight with the opposition and then the in-favor speakers. 
	That seemed to work really well for us tonight.  You never know how the bylaw amendments will roll, but we'll try it, and if it doesn't work, we'll switch it, because there's nothing that says anywhere that we have to take them -- that we have to accept them in a particular order.  But I think that worked really well basically for us tonight was to try to determine what the smaller vote might be and take that group, identify that group first.  So thank you for all of that. 
	I really want to thank everyone for doing a great job of really working together. 
	This has been challenging.  But I think it has worked well.  I think adding the question box helped us.  We just didn't have the staffing to help that work fully last night.  I will do it tomorrow night and I will figure out how we're doing it Friday because I will be chairing the bylaw and standing rule amendment discussion.  Since there's conflict of interest there.  And I will not be doing the Q&A. 
	We have been exploring and playing with using the Q&A in ACB but we haven't fully implemented it everywhere, so we don't have a lot of people who have a lot of experience with it, but we have a few.  There will be a few sessions in the hybrid portion that are going to use it.  There are some hybrid sessions where it is turned on because of the accounts they're in that we're not using it.  So unless you are told that it is being monitored and that you can use it, please don't, because you will not be receiving any attention and there's no point for that.  But we'll be using it in these sessions here and we'll be using it in the general sessions when we are in session in Schaumburg.  So I think it will help us a little bit to help get some of that out of the way and I just want to remind you 
that -- 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  I think we've really [Overlapping speakers].  
	>> DEB COOK LEWIS:  You want be encouraging or chastising or whatever, actually, hold those off.  We're trying to sift through to get everybody's points of order.  I don't like it if people have to wait as long in the Q&A as they do with their hand.  What was super helpful tonight is the fact that many people were able to use the Q&A to let us know that they had a point of order and that we had lowered their hand because we were lowering them and so then we could go back and get you. 
	So I hope that helped a little bit.  I really do. 
	It doesn't totally solve it for people on the phone unless they have an advocate to intervene for them.  It doesn't -- I don't have a total solution for that.  If we can at least raise the bar, though, I think we've done something that we want to do.  So I thank you for your patience on that and cooperation and good working tonight.  I really appreciate it.  Having said all that, we didn't manage to get done any sooner than last night after all, but we got a lot done, and I thank you for it. 
	Now, we will go into recess, then, until tomorrow evening where we will be doing those last four resolutions and then in the meantime, we will get the information for the amendment out to people as soon as we have it here.  And that's cool and we'll just continue on with our process.  I thank you all, and have a good evening. 
	>> RAY CAMPBELL:  Good night, everybody.  Thank you.  
	[ Human realtime captioning by HRI CART.  ]