American Council of the Blind 62nd Annual Conference and Convention
6/23/2023 3:30 PM

CONFIDENTIAL ROUGHLY EDITED REALTIME FILE
Compliments of HRICART.com

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This file was created in real time by a Human Realtime Captioner for the purpose of communication access. It is not a certified legal transcript and may not be entirely verbatim. It is intended for use by the consumer only as notes of the proceedings. A consumer should check with the presenter for any clarification of the presentation.

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AMERICAN COUNCIL OF THE BLIND 
62ND ANNUAL CONFERENCE AND CONVENTION 
"OVER-THE-COUNTER HEARING AIDS: THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UGLY" JUNE 23, 2023, 3:30 PM 
CONFIDENTIAL ROUGHLY EDITED REALTIME FILE 
Compliments of HRICART.com *************************************** 
This file was created in real time by a Certified Realtime Captioner for the purpose of communication access.  It is not a certified legal transcript and may not be entirely verbatim.  It is intended for use by the consumer only as notes of the proceedings.  A consumer should check with the presenter for any clarification of the presentation.  ***************************************
	>> Recording in progress.
	>> KARYN CAMPBELL:  This is Karyn.  Do we have the stream up?
	>> DARCY:  We do not yet.  Before we begin, I have to play the webinar instructions.
	>> JEANETTE KUTASH:  Will tell you when people can -- we're all on mute.  Lori introduces herself after that, I will give out the CEU codes.
	>> DARCY:  And you can hear me, Jeanette?
	>> JEANETTE KUTASH:  Yes, you're all good.
	>> DARCY:  Okay.  I'm going to play the stream, and then we're going to go live, there will be a disclaimer, and then you start.  Here we go.
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	>> DARCY:  All right.  Here we go.
	>> The opinions expressed on the ACB Media Network are those of the content providers and should not be used as an endorsement of any product or service, nor does it reflect the views of the American Council of the Blind, its elected officials, or its staff.
	>> KARYN CAMPBELL:  Okay.  This is Karyn, co-chair of the Sight and Sound Impaired Committee.  Welcome to our second program.  This one is on "Over-the-Counter Hearing Aids: The Good, the Bad and The Ugly."  First of all, I would like our host to give the CEU code.
	>> JEANETTE KUTASH:  Good afternoon.  I am going to give the CEU codes.  I will give the opening one and I will give it two times.  Time one.  The first time.  62252.  The second time.  62252.  Back to you, Karyn.
	>> KARYN CAMPBELL:  Okay.  I am going to introduce a fellow committee member, Lori Scharff, who will facilitate this program.  Lori, over to you.
	>> LORI SCHARFF:  Thank you, Karyn.  This is Lori speaking.  And today we are going to hear from Dr. Carol Hamer from the Helen Keller National Center.  She is an audiologist who graduated from Hofstra University in New York and has been with Helen Keller National Center working with people who are DeafBlind since 2002 and our other presenter today will be Carl Richardson, and Carl is a DeafBlind consumer who is a hearing aid user and a member of the ACB sight and sound impaired committee and I'm going to turn it over to Carol and Carl, not to make it any more confusing with names that sound so similar.
	>> CAROL HAMER:  Hi, everyone, this is Carol speaking.  Thank you for that introduction.  I just want to correct one thing.  It is not Dr. Hamer, it is Ms. Hamer.  I appreciate the honor, but I'm just Carol Hamer, audiologist, and I'm very happy to be here.  Carl, is there anything you wanted to say before I got started?
	>> CARL RICHARDSON:  Just I'm a lifelong hearing aid user and I bring a different perspective of dual sensory loss, but I think I'm going to let Carol Hamer, who has over 30 years of experience working with people with dual sensory loss, who has a lot more knowledge than I do, talk.  And if I have anything to add, I will certainly do so.
	>> CAROL HAMER:  Thanks, Carl.  This is Carol again.  And my name sign is the letter C by the ear.
	So whoever gave the title to this presentation, I have to say, I really, really liked it.  It is perfect.  Why is it perfect?  Because not only is the hearing health industry big business these days, it can be very difficult for consumers to navigate, but the song from the movie, "the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" is so iconic.  And music is such a big part of so many people's lives, and for individuals who have hearing loss and use hearing devices, the experience of listening to music can be
impacted.  So good title.  I really appreciate it.
	Choosing what to do when you have hearing loss is such an important decision.  There are so many options now and choosing what is best for yourself can really be overwhelming.  I receive calls and texts and emails from friends and family members all the time because they themselves just don't know where to begin.
	Working here at Helen Keller has given me an even more fine-tuned perspective about the use of hearing aids for individuals who do have combined vision and hearing loss.  And there's always so many factors to take into consideration when choosing a hearing aid.  But when you are blind or have low vision, there are additional factors to consider.
	Before I get into the specifics, I just wanted to discuss what the different types of hearing devices are and who over-the-counter hearing aids are intended for.
	So up until this point in time, hearing aids could only be prescribed by hearing health healthcare providers.  That is, audiologists or hearing aid dispensers who are licensed in their states.  And the hearing device provided by hearing healthcare providers are known as traditional hearing aids, and they come in a few different styles.  So to begin with, I'm just going to review what those styles are.  And there are three different types of traditional hearing aids.  We have in the ear, we have behind the ear, and then we have receiver in the ear.
	With an in the ear hearing aid, the entire device fits in the ear.  The audiologist takes an earmold impression and a custom device is made to fit specifically in that person's ear.  With a behind-the-ear hearing aid, the hearing aid is worn behind or actually over the ear and the sound is delivered into the ear with a custom-made earmold that is connected by a tube to the hearing aid.  And then there are receiver in-the-ear style hearing aids that connect with a thin wire to the earpiece that goes in the ear.  The receiver in the ear type can also use custom earmolds like a behind the ear or it can use off-the-shelf, rubber earpieces like you would find on earbuds.  Again, the aid itself is worn behind the ear.
	These devices are programmed by the audiologist, and it might take more than one session to get everything just right.  And these hearing aids, prescription hearing aids, can fit all degrees of hearing loss, from mild to profound.
	Now, I just want to go over the specifics of who the FDA says over-the-counter hearing aids are meant for.  The Food and Drug Administration is the organization that oversees over-the-counter hearing aids, and they stipulate that these devices are only for individuals over 18 years old.  If someone is under 18, we really want them to be seen by an ear, nose, and throat physician and an audiologist.  So if you're over 18 and you have a mild to moderate hearing loss, you're someone who could benefit from over-the-counter hearing aids.
	Some people might be wondering, what does a person with a
mild-to-moderate hearing loss experience in terms of hearing difficulty?  Well, those people might have trouble hearing speech in very noisy places.  They might find it difficult to follow speech in a group conversation.
	A person with a mild-to-moderate hearing loss might have trouble hearing on the phone.  Listening might make them very tired.  And they might turn up the volume louder on a TV, radio, or other device so that people in their environment say, you know what?  That is way too loud.
	If a person cannot understand speech, even in a quiet environment, without any background noise, or if they can't hear even very loud sounds, over-the-counter hearing aids are probably not appropriate for these individuals.  Their degree of loss is greater than moderate, and the over-the-counter hearing aids would not offer enough amplification to be beneficial.  Even if they were wearing those over-the-counter devices, they would still be struggling to hear, and they would still be asking for clarification.
	And then there are certain conditions where it is really strongly recommended that you seek the advice of a professional, because with these following conditions, it's really not safe to fit yourself with an over-the-counter hearing aid.  So if your ear is an unusual shape or was injured in any way, you should not use an over-the-counter hearing aid without first seeking professional advice.
	In the past six months you've had blood, crust, or fluid coming from your ear, you should not use an over-the-counter hearing aid.
	And I think we're going to do an interpreter switch now.
	If your ear feels painful or uncomfortable or if you have a lot of wax or think there is something in your ear, do not go fit yourself with an over-the-counter hearing aid.  If you get dizzy or have the feeling of spinning or swaying or if your hearing changes suddenly in the past six months, please seek professional attention before you go purchase an over-the-counter hearing aid.
	If your hearing fluctuates or if you have worse hearing in one ear or ringing or buzzing in only one ear, please seek professional advice before you go get an over-the-counter hearing aid.
	I do think over-the-counter hearing aids can be beneficial for some people.  Without adequate hearing, unless you are someone who uses sign language or an alternative communication method, you're not completely involved in what is happening in your world.  Without knowing it, you could be missing important information or cues.  And this is true for anyone with a hearing loss, regardless of your vision status.
	And really listening, using active listening skills, is a complicated task.  Listening and processing information is very different than just hearing something.  And we know that for
individuals with combined vision and hearing loss who cannot rely on their vision for getting spatial, environmental, or speech cues, it is even more difficult to get that auditory message because you don't have the ability to fill in using your vision.
	For individuals who have a vision loss and then develop a hearing loss, it can be more difficult to deal with than for a person who does not have a vision loss.  Our ears do not only help us hear, but they are also an important part of the vestibular system, and that is the system which helps us keep our balance.  So hearing loss really can impact more than just your ability to hear.
	If you think you are a candidate for an over-the-counter hearing aid, there are a few things to keep in mind.  Some of these devices you need to use an app on your cell phone or a remote control to be able to control the hearing aids.
	I know from experience that not all apps are user-friendly for blind individuals.  If the app is not accessible to you on your Braille device, how are you going to control the devices if that is the only way to do it?  So that's one thing to keep in mind.
	Is there a return period if you're not happy with the devices?  And if there is, is there a complete refund or do you forfeit some of the money?  What is the warranty period for the devices?  And who is going to help you if you have trouble with the technology?  Do they offer customer service?  And are those customer service specialists accessible to you with your devices?
	The next step if you do get hearing devices over the counter is to get yourself accustomed to them.  This might not happen overnight or for a few days.  It might take several days or weeks.  Are you going to be able to make necessary adjustments to help yourself get more comfortable, or are you going to throw up your hands and give up?  We don't want that to happen.  If you get over-the-counter hearing devices and they're not working out, see if there is an audiologist or hearing aid dispenser who will work with you to try to get those devices more comfortable for you.
	Depending on your level of visual function and how long you've had the vision loss, and depending on your hearing loss and how long you've have been experiencing that loss, your needs for the hearing aids could vary.  For example, if you use your hearing to safely cross a street, you want to be able to hear all that you can and not have the hearing aids be switching and trying to focus on nearby speech.  Because the main intention for hearing aids is to give people better access, not only to their environment, but really, better access to communication.  And the way hearing aids, regardless of the type that they are, the way they function is typically the hearing aid is searching for speech to make it easier for you to have conversation.  But
if you're crossing the street and your hearing aid is switching so that you're no longer hearing the traffic, obviously you're not going to be safe.
	So working with an audiologist who can help you figure out what are the situations that you're in every day and how can we best adjust the hearing aids so that you can hear in each specific situation, that's something that you really can get with over-the-counter hearing aids.  And much of what audiologists do is helping people address the specific situations that they encounter.
	If you are somebody who really enjoys walking a lot outside and the sound of the wind is impacting your ability to hear somebody next to you walking and having a conversation with you, how are you going to address that?  So while over-the-counter hearing aids can help to bring hearing devices into the hands of more people, my concern for individuals who have combined vision and hearing loss is that the situations you encounter can be more taxing and more difficult and really have more specific needs that you might not be able to figure out on your own, what is the best way for me to deal with this particular situation.
	The other very important aspect that many people don't realize is that hearing health is really important for mental health.  And unless you're somebody who uses sign language and/or an alternative communication device, you rely on your hearing to help keep you connected with your environment and with everyone around you.  And we know now that for individuals who do use hearing aids, those hearing aids can help reduce the risk of dementia.  For individuals who have hearing loss that is not addressed, the risk of developing dementia is much greater than for individuals who have hearing loss that is properly addressed with the correct hearing aids.
	I'd like to now open the floor for questions and Carl, if you have anything that you would like to add, please.
	>> CARL RICHARDSON:  Hi, everyone.  Well, I think it's time over-the-counter hearing aid might be appropriate for somebody 
-- comes the fact that once you combine the vision loss and the hearing loss, no matter how mild either is, when you combine them both, it becomes fairly significant, and therefore, you do need to work with an individual.  I would even get tested even if I was considering over-the-counter hearing aids.  I've never been a candidate for those, but if I was considering those, I would get tested.  Because if you don't get the proper hearing device, you can do more damage to your hearing and make it even worse.  You can't custom fit over-the-counter hearing aids the way you can hearing aids through an audiologist.  You don't have as much control over hearing aids, I have hearing aids that pick up the noises that Carol was mentioning.  So I can hear traffic when I'm crossing the street.  And I switched from another brand that had a different philosophy that concentrated on speech.  And while it was great in terms of me recognizing speech, when my vision got worse and I could no longer see traffic -- I think we need more consulting than we do if you do not.  If you have just a hearing loss.
	The other thing is, well, yes, going to an audiologist is significantly more expensive than that of over the counter, Carol mentioned a couple of things.  They are holding my hand throughout the process.  I probably go to my audiologist every six months, to switch out the tubes in my hearing aids.  If I'm hearing changes, I have what's called a lot of head (indiscernible) in my hearing aids.  I can change the program in my hearing aids if my hearing gets worse or if I say, you know, I was in this type of setting and I need to do this, they can create a specific program within the hearing aids.  The audiologist will work with you and it's usually -- and I get charged no extra.  I can see her times when I'm buying the hearing aids unless they're no longer under warranty.  But if it's just routine service, I don't get charged additional.  Yes, I paid $6,000 when I initially buy them.  But I see my audiologist quite a bit because I'm in a high-profile job, a visible job, and I no longer have the ability to work the way I used to, so I need to get as much information as I can.
	I'm not saying that over-the-counter hearing aid are not for anybody, I'm just saying because most people here have dual sensory loss, they other things to take into consideration of those who do not.  And even if you are a candidate for over-the-counter hearing aids, I would consult with either an audiologist or an ear, nose, and throat doctor to make sure that -- because I don't think we should all be self-prescribing.  Hearing is too variable and you don't want to self-prescribe.  And basically, coming to you with a lifelong -- and I've gone from one in the ear hearing aid when I had a more mild hearing aid to two in the ear hearing aids to over the ear hearing aids and now I'm using two over the ear and if I get any worse I'll probably be a candidate for a cochlear implants, but that's just the reality of my situation. But my audiologist has been with me for -- actually, my first audiologist, I had since I was a little boy.  Actually retired.  So, you know, I went to a new one, but they've been with me through my whole entire journey.  And I'll be honest.  I had to educate.  Not all audiologists understand, because they are concentrating on speech recognition, speech intelligence and intelligibility of people who are already hard of hearing.  Sometimes you have to remind them, I have a dual sensory loss.  My needs are different.  And don't be afraid to push and educate them or do some research and challenge them with questions, because you pay.  You pay the $6,000 and you've got to get your money's worth.  And do it in a nice way.  Do it in an advocacy way.  Say, listen, this will make a difference, so I can communicate, so I can take part in society, so I can communicate with my wife, so I can do things.
	And the other benefit that the over-the-counter hearing aids are cheaper because they don't have as much technology in them, which is fine for some folks.  Not me.  But I like to have the telecoil capability in my hearing aids, so I can plug in all technology, to have a headphone jack.  I like the opportunity to switch between different settings in my hearing aids, if I go into a restaurant and -- at that point, I don't want to hear traffic.  I want to hear speech.  You know what I mean?
	I like the ability to have Bluetooth to my iPhone.  Pair a microphone so that I walk into a conference room, I can put the microphone on a conference table and hear all the speakers at the table because I have a conference-style mic that connects directly to my hearing aid.  Keep in mind, I'm more moderate to severe so I have more needs.  I'm not saying that you shouldn't consider over-the-counter hearing aids, but I would consult with a professional first, okay?  And that's just my perspective.  Thank you.
	>> CAROL HAMER:  This is Carol speaking, and I see that Rita has a hand raised.
	>> JEANETTE KUTASH:  Yes.  I was just going to call on her.
	>> RITA:  Hello.  Can you hear me all right?
	>> JEANETTE KUTASH:  Yes.
	>> RITA:  Great.  Excellent presentation.  Question about Live Listen feature for Apple IOS air buds.  Have you had any success with that, with, you know, very, you know, mild hearing loss?  Have you heard that people have reported that that is a potentially viable first start because it's so inexpensive, you know, to start with in terms of, you know, hearing issues for some individuals?
	>> CAROL HAMER:  Thanks for the question, Rita.  So this is Carol speaking, and let me just explain for those who might not know, with iPhones, if you have AirPods, there is something called Live Listen, and what that does, it turns your iPhone into a microphone so that you can leave it in the center of the table and potentially hear your communication partners more easily.  I will say, Rita, some people have had success with that.  And I do encourage if you find that the AirPods or any of these other, what we call hearables, h-e-a-r-a-b-l-e-s, these devices are called hearables, and they can help some people.  And if it's going to help you for a while, use it for a while.
	But for other individuals, having an actual Bluetooth microphone might work a little better.  And one of the things that Carl was mentioning was that for his hearing aids, he can have a microphone to put in the center of the table and I would say most of the time those microphones will be more beneficial than the Live Listen.  Go ahead, Carl.
	>> CARL RICHARDSON:  I just wanted to add one more thing about listen live.  Listen live can also work with hearing aids, because I can triple click a button and it works with my hearing.  Listen live is okay if you're in a jam.  If the phone hears you talking, you're going to hear yourself talking twice, while you're talking -- and that can be distracting when you're trying to filter out noise and pay attention to what you're doing.  I have listen live if I'm far away I might put the phone up on a podium.  I have used it in a pinch when I don't have my microphone or when I'm sitting too far away.  But it's not something I would rely on.  And if you wear AirPods, you have to remember, wearing AirPods, they have a microphone for you to talk, making phone calls and things.  So when you're talking, it's going to repeat what you're saying through listen live as well.  So that's just something to be aware of.
	>> JEANETTE KUTASH:  Phil, go ahead.  Phil?  Phil?  I will allow you to talk again.
	>> PHIL:  Here I am.  Can you hear me now?
	>> JEANETTE KUTASH:  Yes.
	>> PHIL:  I was born totally blind and I had normal hearing until I became a young adult and I began this slow process of losing my hearing, so I began wearing hearing aids at the age of 38 and working with audiologists from the beginning, mostly inner ear.  Several years ago I started wearing behind the ear, which I found a lot clearer, better for me.  About seven years ago, one of those hearing aids that I had, well, the receiver went out.  I never had that happen in hearing aids before.  And so I had to wear just one hearing aid for a little while while it was getting fixed.  I was needing to get backup hearing aids, so I went to a department store, found a hearing aid salesman and bought over-the-counter hearing aids.  That was a pretty terrible experience.  It sounded like whenever I heard somebody speak it sounded like they were talking through a cup or whenever I heard something on the radio or on my computer, the device -- it faded in and out and on the way to work, the traffic would be super low, the train super low, speech high.  So I went to this salesman three or four times, had him making adjustments.  He had never dealt with someone with a dual sensory loss before and he was always contacting his Help Desk about this kind of thing.  So to answer about -- well, I'm not going to come back.  I've got to try this one more time and see what happens now.  And he was totally opposite from what it was the first time.  All the traffic noise was way up but the speech was way down.  So it just got to the point where I just took the hearing aids back to him and, fortunately, it was during the 90-day period where I could try them out so I did get my money back.  But all this took place about a year and a half before I found out that I needed cochlear implants, so I guess you could say, my experience was not necessarily good nor bad, but ugly.  But do you think that it was maybe my loss was just too far along for over-the-counter hearing aids?  Could have been part of the problem?
	>> CAROL HAMER:  This is Carol speaking.  Without the information that you've just stated, the fact that you now have cochlear implants, I would say that, yes, you probably were not a candidate for whatever those devices were.  They were just not appropriate for you.
	The other point I'd like to make is for individuals who do have low vision or who are blind, if they are meant to wear two hearing aids -- in other words, if they have hearing loss that is in both ears and they only are wearing one hearing aid because that's all they could afford, that is dangerous, because, again, your hearing is important, but also your vestibular system that keeps you balanced and having just one hearing aid can really throw your balance off if you need two.
	One other point that I'd like to make is if you try one particular type of hearing aid, one brand, and that one is not good for you, you don't like the way it sounds, and the audiologist has tried making adjustments, it could just be that that particular hearing aid, the way they program them is not to your liking.  The way hearing aid companies make their money is off of their algorithms.  The algorithm is the information that the hearing aid uses to handle different sounds, and each company, their hearing aids will each sound a little different, one from the other, and so, you know, if you try something and it's just not right, don't think that that's how all hearing aids will sound.  And if you are working with someone and you find that they're not giving you the service that you need, sometimes it can be best to go through an audiologist who is affiliated with a hospital or with a teaching institution, like the university, rather than just a private person.  I am not saying anything negative about all private audiologists.  I'm just saying in general, if you are having trouble finding someone, try someone at a university or a hospital.
	>> JEANETTE KUTASH:  Next is 410, ending in 927.
	>> CALLER:  Okay.  Can everyone hear me?
	>> JEANETTE KUTASH:  Yes.
	>> CALLER:  You want to say I'm the new kid on the block, and I've recently begun to explore wearing hearing aid.  Giving you a very short version of my history, mom had German measles when she was carrying me, and so I was born totally blind and had some other issues but what we didn't know was that I had a hearing loss because the only thing that it impacted at that time, especially when I was in kindergarten, first grade, into early adulthood, was my ability to hear people whisper.  I knew that they were whispering, but I couldn't necessarily tell what they were saying.  Otherwise, my hearing was fine.
	But over the years, I was noticing changes, and I would periodically get hearing testing done, and it would be like, you need to get hearing aids.  No, I'm not quite there yet.  Fast-forward to now, and I decided it's time.  So I first talked to -- who is affiliated with an area hospital.  In fact, the entire practice I go to is one-stop shopping affiliated with a hospital.  He recommended to me what turned out to be a fabulous audiologist because I'm the first visually impaired patient she's ever had, and with each pair of hearing aids that I have tried, she's been very interested in making sure that I'm using the -- you know, the test try ones that are accessible with voiceover.  And if something's not accessible, you know, she's reached out to the manufacturers and said, hey, this doesn't work.  That doesn't work.  This doesn't work.
	So the first pair that I tried were okay, but not as accessible with the app on the phone and they weren't as comfortable to wear.  These are the behind-the-ear style, and Phonak.  For someone else, they might work very well, so not criticizing them.  Certainly gave me an idea to be what it was like to wear one.  The second pair that I'm probably going to go to is Signia.  The battery life is tremendously longer as that of a Phonak, and there have been some bugs here and there and she is keenly interested in making sure that everything works to the degree that I need.  So every time I go in for her to tweak something, we've had discussions about, okay, what is it that's not working on the app with voiceover?  And she will -- I can't talk.  She will email the manufacturer and say, hey, this is a problem.
	And what I really appreciate about her is that she says, you are my instructor because in the future, if I have another patient who is visually impaired or totally blind, I will be better prepared to serve that patient.  So it's been a very, very positive experience.
	>> JEANETTE KUTASH:  Next is Lolly.
	>> LOLLY:  Thanks, it's Lolly.  I've been thinking about over-the-counter, coming up to the end of the warranty on my current hearing aids, which I've had for about three years.  I did try a different brand before I got this pair that I have.  And found that while that brand was great for speech capture and was really good for conversation, what I found was the pair that I have -- and ironically, the pair that I'm using now are Phonak, so it really does depend on your loss and what you are looking for.  So I still have good speech recognition and ability to participate with conversation.  
	But the thing that made me choose this brand was something that I haven't heard too many talk about, and that's echo location.  Carol, you talked about traffic, which is obviously important.  But I also think that -- and I've talked to audiology students about this as well.  Echo location is so important and we rarely think about it when it comes to dual sensory loss.  We can still do it.  It isn't out of the realm of possibility for us who are not yet in the severe or profound category.  And so that, along with music and conversation, are sort of the three things that I look for in terms of trying to make certain that the audiologist that I'm working with understands that those are the things I need to -- I need to make a pair of hearing aids work for me.  And to me, echo location also has to do with safety.  
	So I just noticed the difference in the two brands that I tried and the first one didn't have quite the range in terms of accenting those higher sounds that one needs to capture when you're getting good echo location.  So I just mention that. 
	 And as I come up to thinking about getting a new pair, I will hold on to these still because they're still useful.  They're still definitely usable.  And I may stick with the same brand or I may not, just depending, because technology changes.  The manufacturers update what they're doing and I have -- I'm about two back, so I see where I end up.  
	But I appreciate the presentation.  I'm glad to hear about some of the cautions.  I have a friend who has gotten over-the-counter aids and this person does music and so it's been interesting to me that they are finding that the over-the-counter aids do what they need for that particular use.  They also have dual sensory loss.  So at any rate, I adding that piece to the discussion.  Thanks.
	>> JEANETTE KUTASH:  And Scott, you should be allowed to talk.
	>> SCOTT:  Thank you.  Great amount of information today and appreciate it very much.  I wonder, is it possible to successfully use only one aid if you have normal hearing in your other ear?  That was my situation when I was evaluated a couple of years ago and was given a Starkey in-the-ear model and I, after trying it for almost all of the trial period, I just felt I couldn't get used to the whole idea.  Should I have tried another brand?  Is this something that's worth doing?  I have moderate to severe loss in the right ear.  Any comments would be appreciated.
	>> CAROL HAMER:  This is Carol.  So for individuals who do have normal hearing, no hearing loss in one ear, you can use just a hearing aid in that opposite ear.  However, I will say that sometimes in that situation we might, for some people, put a very mild hearing loss on that other ear just so they can have -- this is so specific to individuals, so please know that.  But we sometimes do a very mild hearing loss on the other ear.
	If you have no hearing in one ear and good hearing in the other, we can use what's called a Cros, and what that does, it takes sound that occurs on the nonfunctioning ear and just brings it over to the good ear to that hearing aid.  I hope that answers your question.
	>> JEANETTE KUTASH:  Steve?
	>> STEVE BAUER:  Great presentation.  I really appreciate it.  Scott's question was one that I had because I'm kind of in the same situation, so I appreciate your insight on that.
	I think you pretty much convinced me that I need to see an audiologist and not go for an over-the-counter hearing aid, but seeing the audiologist, I'm probably the first blind guy they've ever dealt with.  Can you offer any guidance as to which brands of hearing aids, the apps, that's what I'm most concerned about, what apps are more accessible than others?  Do you have any insider comments on that?
	>> CAROL HAMER:  This is Carol, and just to be clear, you do not have to use the app in order for the hearing aids to be functional.  So while I do think accessibility and -- is really important in having all be accessible is important, the most important thing is that you be comfortable with whatever hearing needs you're choosing.  So I would say go through an audiologist who is going to give you the ability to try several different pairs and first make sure that you can at least be comfortable with the hearing aids.
	The apps, you know, can sometimes give a little more fine control, but really, hearing aids can function independently without an app and just so everyone knows, most hearing aids now are Bluetooth-ready and will connect to a cell phone without having to use an intermediate device, and you don't need to use the app to do that.  You just have to connect to the Bluetooth.
	>> CARL RICHARDSON:  This is Carl.  I will say that, you know, I have the app that comes with my phone, but I've never used it.  And not because of accessibility, but because I just would rather go to the audiologist and work on the fine-tuning.  The tuning is what I need in the hearing aid there, and I have no -- I mean, my iPhone works with my hearing aids all the time and I wouldn't be able to use it without it and you don't need an app.  You go into accessibility settings, depending on what kind of phone you have, you have hearing devices or Bluetooth, you get a Bluetooth, and you just pair it the way you would a normal Bluetooth device.  So it's not that the app isn't relevant, but I tend to go to my own audiologist if I need to play with the settings and change the way things are done.
	>> JEANETTE KUTASH:  Timothy.
	>> TIMOTHY:  Thank you, Jeanette.  Unfortunately, I missed the first part of this presentation.  I had to tend to something.  But I have moderate to severe hearing loss in both ears and five or six years ago I went through Costco and tried many different hearing aids and they say, you have a reverse slope and it's like, huh?  And they suggested I see a doctor.  So I did, and I was working with a doctor for a while.  I had Phonak for a while, I went to Oticon, and they can never tune it to the point where I can actually hear people speak very well, so I end up taking them off.
	I was wondering, is there a particular hearing aid company that is better for working with people with reverse slope?  That's a huge problem.  They give me open domes and closed domes and slightly open and -- and it just never works.  You know, way too much echo.  All I can do -- I can hear the clock ticking.  I can hear the air conditioning and the refrigerator, but I still can't hear people talking.
	>> JEANETTE KUTASH:  Sorry.
	>> CAROL HAMER:  Go ahead, Jeanette.
	>> JEANETTE KUTASH:  No, no.
	>> CAROL HAMER:  That type of hearing loss, Timothy, can be difficult to fit.  I won't recommend one brand specifically, but I will say try again with different audiologists and sometimes having a custom earpiece helps because it just directs the sound better and, you know, it might be able to get more fine-tuned than just having the open dome.
	>> JEANETTE KUTASH:  Next is Pierre.
	>> PIERRE:  Yeah, my question is, if I go to an audiologist, what's the odds that she's going to prescribe me an $850 pair of Bose instead of $6,000 or $10,000 hearing aid?
	>> CAROL HAMER:  This is Carol speaking.  And not all audiologists are working with the hearables or the over-the-counter.  So it really is going to depend what the audiologist -- what brand they work with.
	>> JEANETTE KUTASH:  Carol, your next hand is Linda.  Linda, you may unmute.
	>> LINDA:  Okay.  Well, I thought I was already unmuted.
	>> JEANETTE KUTASH:  You're fine.
	>> LINDA:  I'm fine.  That's what I thought.  Okay.  I really appreciate the presentation.  Thank you so much.  I have moderate to severe hearing loss on both ears with the right ear being the better one of the two.  You know, can't hear -- can't hear out of one ear, whatever they say about the eyes.  Blind on one -- deaf in one other and can't hear out of the other.  That's it.
	Anyway, I use Audibel, 2400ai hearing aids.  In the ear, you know, and you just -- I have a charger with it.  So anyway, I'm happier with these than the ones that I had when I lived in Florida, but I have -- okay, I've used the app, which is not accessible, for the most part.  But I do use it when I go to CVS with my provider and I use mask mode even if people aren't wearing masks because it makes the speech loud enough for me to hear my provider when she has her back toward me looking at something, and that does help me.  Starkey and my audiologist about that, more accessible to the point of (indiscernible).  Anyway, I just wanted to -- and also, the background noise, though, I could never seem to resolve that issue.  And I do have a mic.  You know, the -- that somebody could wear, but it doesn't completely eliminate the background noise.  And I'd like to also know about neck loops, because they say that the audiologist has one built in, but I didn't know how to ask, a theater or a play and be able to have audio descriptions where I can hear it and see it properly.
	>> CAROL HAMER:  This is Carol.  So neck loop is used with the telecoil, t-e-l-e-c-o-i-l, the telecoil setting on a hearing aid.  And the telecoil was originally created because back in the old days when we had very heavy and very strong telephones, the large telephones, when you would put that phone receiver up to your ear, your hearing aid would start to whistle.  So the telecoil, instead of using the hearing aid microphone, the telecoil is an electromagnetic device that will only pick up signals from an electromagnetic device, like a phone receiver.
	Nowadays, however, the telecoil can be used in a public air so that if there is something being broadcast and you switch to your telecoil program, you will hear what is being broadcast.  For most of the individuals who I work with, I will not only give them telecoil because they need to have access to their environmental information at the same time.  So I give them a telecoil plus microphone program.  And when you're in that program, if you go to a theater or someplace where they have what's called a loop system, l-o-o-p, system in use, and you switch to your telecoil plus microphone program, whatever is being broadcast will go into the hearing aids and you can still hear your environment around you.  And there are different ratios of how loud one can be compared to the next, so if you're not sure how to access the telecoil or if you even have it, ask your audiologist.  And if things are sounding not quite as you think they should, don't hesitate to bring that up with the audiologist.  Some of the previous individuals who spoke up sounded like they could really advocate really well for themselves and also help educate audiologists about working with individuals who have more than just a hearing loss.  It's not something you're taught in audiology school.  So, you know, having you all as good advocates and good educators is really important for the next individuals coming along.
	>> CARL RICHARDSON:  This is Carl.  I just want to jump in.  I use the telecoil.
	>> JEANETTE KUTASH:  Carl, excuse me.  You have seven minutes left.
	>> CARL RICHARDSON:  Thank you, Jeanette, but let me say my piece first.  Thank you.  I just want to say that telecoil is a function that I use all the time.  More and more, people on their faces to have the wires underneath.  But even if you don't, you can buy a $30 to $50 -- might be cheaper in some cases, neck loop.  I carry it in my pocket.  When I come up to an ATM and I need to withdraw money, rather than taking hearing aids out, putting in my -- I put the telecoil around my neck and plug it in and that way I can hear my environment or if I come to an accessible kiosk or if I go to ACB convention and they hand me an ALD, I can simply plug it into the telecoil loop.
	So if your hearing aids do have telecoil capability, I think it's worth investing, personally, on a neck loop and having that with you so if you come to a device that has a headphone jack, you can even plug it into a computer and listen to a screen reader.  It's worth having if you can invest the money to do it.  So thank you.
	>> JEANETTE KUTASH:  Lori, back to you.  You have about six minutes left.
	>> KARYN CAMPBELL:  This is Karyn.  Do we have any more questions?
	>> JEANETTE KUTASH:  No more questions, Karyn.  We have done a good job in getting them done.
	>> KARYN CAMPBELL:  Okay.  I want to thank Lori for facilitating.  I want to thank Carol and Carl for presenting.  Nice job.  And Joanne, if there are no more questions, go ahead and give the closing code.
	>> JEANETTE KUTASH:  Thank you, Karyn.  I'm going to repeat the code twice.  First time.  16062.  Second time.  16062.
	>> KARYN CAMPBELL:  Okay.
	>> LORI SCHARFF:  And I'm sorry, go ahead, Karyn.  This is Lori.  I just wanted to say sorry, I was muted and I was talking before, but nobody heard me.
	(Laughter)
	>> JEANETTE KUTASH:  It happens when you're muted, Lori.
	>> CARL RICHARDSON:  I actually like that, Lori.
	>> LORI SCHARFF:  I want to say thank you so much to Carol and to Carl and Carol, I do apologize.  You come in such high regard from so many people, I just made a big assumption.
	>> CAROL HAMER:  Thank you.  That's fine.  Thanks so much.
	>> LORI SCHARFF:  I want to say we had a really great group of people here today and, you know, this -- for anybody that you may know, this will be podcasted as well along with everything else from convention.  So feel free to connect people to have a listen.
	>> CAROL HAMER:  Thank you.
	>> KARYN CAMPBELL:  Thank you again, everybody.
	>> CAROL HAMER:  Thank you.
	>> CARL RICHARDSON:  Thank you, Carol.  Thank you, Karyn.  Thank you, Lori, and thank you to the community who tuned in to listen.
	>> KARYN CAMPBELL:  Thank you.
	>> JEANETTE KUTASH:  I'm going to end the webinar.
	[ Human realtime captioning by HRI CART. ]